Conjecture?

[letumgo]

My complete lack of understanding of what fly I was "should" be fishing at any given time, has allowed me to catch fish on a wide range of flies. Many of the flies I used probably shouldn't have worked, if you had asked someone who knew better. I had lots of luck on soft hackle flies up to a size 6, before I learned that I "should" have tyed them in sizes 16. Fish can be pretty forgiving (curiosity perhaps) if your careful in your approach (not scaring them by crashing/splashing into the stream; try to keep a low profile; make a decent drift without "lining" the fish; send the fly through at the "right" depth; etc.). Presence and presentation are a big part of the equation.

[willowhead]

BIGGER than big Ray...........you'll hear allllllll kinna percentages bout fly vs. presentation.........trust me.....it's damn close to 99% presentation. Opinions are like you know what's and everybody has one.........if a fish could talk.......first thing he'd tell ya is, "i gotta eat." You present it right, he'll eat it, Case Closed!
Ed Van Put, author of the book, The Beaverkill.....long time best guide in the Catskills, Department of Enviornmental Conservation employee for his entire working life, fished for over 40 years with ONE fly and outfished EVERYONE.....an Adams. PERIOD! Nuff said?

[Soft-hackle]

Anyone ever heard of what is called a "self-fulfilling prophecy"? I learned about it, years ago when I was studying education. At that point it pertained to a teacher's expectations of a student's success. For the most part if a teacher suspected a student would NOT do well in class, they usually did not and the reverse held true as well. What does this tell you?

Perhaps this could also be applied to fly fishing? We expect certain trout behavior, and therefore we get certain behavior. The thing is, we get back what WE expect.

Mark

[willowhead]

So Mark, your saying the teacher took little interest in going beyond for the kid he or she had already written off........and knocked themself out for the kid they figured was worth it..............right, or wrong?

[Otter]

Mark , as interesting a theory as it sounds I don't really think it is applicable to the behaviour of trout in general as far as my experience goes.

For starters the trout will feed in a certain manner irrespective of whether I am on the river or not, the only impact I can have to their feeding behaviour is by me disturbing them.

If I was to take you to my local river on an average evening in late june. From 9pm to 12:30 if you asked me the time I could tell you pretty closely by watching the river. The pattern of behaviour during this time in normal weather conditions and normal water height is mirrored from one season to the next. The weather can affect the hatches and hence the behaviour of the trout. Water height changes things as well, but with a few years experience you learn to adapt to these things, and you can anticpate where to be and when to be there. More often than not things will happen as you expect them -

No different than watching a restaurant. At a certain time trout will start their progress up to down to the riffles, or the late night drinkers will leave the pub and seek food. There are patterns and trying to understand them and predict them and still be able to react when un-expected things occur is what I believe to be a reasonably successful way of catching trout. It is not uncommon for some anglers to expect the trout to match how they want to fish, I believe that the angler matching the feeding behaviour of the trout is more favoured with success.

[Soft-hackle]

Otter,
What I'm saying, here, is the teacher, and the fisherman assumes certain things, and those assumptions often determine the outcome in their situation. It really has nothing to do with behavior, but what we perceive the situation to be. We act based on our perceptions, and they definitely determine what will happen in a given circumstance or situation. If we believe something is true, we act upon it or in a certain way. Then if the outcome of our actions actually results in what we thought was going happen ,we assume, again, that our perceptions were correct, reinforcing our beliefs. However, I believe that our perceptions/assumptions can be wrong, and that what we often perceive to be true, really isn't. This is what I am trying to demonstrate. Yes, behavior is a result of our perceptions, but the point is that they could be based upon false perception.

I would also have to differ with you regarding our influence upon a trout. Once you begin interaction with that fish, you start to influence its behavior. Your presence and how you fish will definitely determine how the trout will act. Even if you do not disturb the fish at all, what you do, will definitely determine how the fish acts at that point in time, and it may also affect its future behavior.

Mark,
In many cases, the student could, indeed, be ignored. In most cases, a student senses that the teacher really has no confidence in their success, and often doesn't try. The result is, as the teacher expected, the student fails. If a teacher approaches the situation that every student will pass their class, they usually do. There's no negativity for the student to sense.

In dealing with children, one learns pretty quickly that the more positive an attitude a parent or teacher has, the more successful our children and students will be.

It's quite a bit like a teacher who believes that the students coming into their class know absolutely nothing about the subject of the class. That, to me, is a big mistake. It often determines how the teacher teaches, which often bores a student to death. A good teacher can no longer assume that anymore.

Mark

[Soft-hackle]

Take, for example, this optical illusion above. If you look at it, it appears that all the horizontal rows of squares are tipped to either the right or left. With further investigation, you will find that all the rows are perfectly straight. Our visual perception is not reality.

Mark

[Otter]

Otter,
What I'm saying, here, is the teacher, and the fisherman assumes certain things, and those assumptions often determine the outcome in their situation. It really has nothing to do with behavior, but what we perceive the situation to be. We act based on our perceptions, and they definitely determine what will happen in a given circumstance or situation. If we believe something is true, we act upon it or in a certain way. Then if the outcome of our actions actually results in what we thought was going happen ,we assume, again, that our perceptions were correct, reinforcing our beliefs. However, I believe that our perceptions/assumptions can be wrong, and that what we often perceive to be true, really isn't. This is what I am trying to demonstrate. Yes, behavior is a result of our perceptions, but the point is that they could be based upon false perception.

I would also have to differ with you regarding our influence upon a trout. Once you begin interaction with that fish, you start to influence its behavior. Your presence and how you fish will definitely determine how the trout will act. Even if you do not disturb the fish at all, what you do, will definitely determine how the fish acts at that point in time, and it may also affect its future behavior.


Mark

Aaagh, okay there is much truth in that. I have no doubt that there is much common knowledge throughout angling that is quite inaccurate, built on hearsay and assumptions. I suppose that's what makes ones own angling challenging, seeking to enforce or dispel common knowledge. Creating our own truths is all part of the experience, without trying to figure out events on the water , re-creating success or avoidance of failure is difficult to say the least.

But within your quote below can be what sometimes separates the more "catch wise" proficient anglers from those that struggle to catch with regularity.


I totally agree with you on influencing the fish. I touched on this in this or the other conjecture post where I mentioned that the impact of C&R has to be taken into account when we make choices in our approach to a particular piece of water. Its not rocket science to suggest that hard fished waters generally get harder as the season progresses, trout becoming more and more selective of when and where and how they will feed. It simply means that an angler on such waters needs to match his fishing to the behaviour of the trout and possibly experiment with fishing completely different methods from the general mass of anglers.


Good probing stuff you are presenting Mark.

Take, for example, this optical illusion above. If you look at it, it appears that all the horizontal rows of squares are tipped to either the right or left. With further investigation, you will find that all the rows are perfectly straight. Our visual perception is not reality.

Mark

[Soft-hackle]

Hi Otter,
There's a lot we DO know about trout behavior that can assist us in our quest to hold, for a few minutes, a beautiful creature in our grasp, and then release it back to nature. These things we know for sure are based upon scientific investigation and experiment. The average angler, however, fishes, basically, on his observances afield and his assumption. Therefore, the more we can learn through scientific study, the better. However, I believe, as someone has already said, the more we know, the more we realize how much we don't.

For those that are reading, here, I would like to suggest a wonderful book entitled The Complete Brown Trout by Cecil Heacox. Mr. Heacox started out as a laborer in the fisheries section of the New York State Department of Environmental Conservation and worked his way up through the ranks to become Deputy Commissioner. Educated at Dartmouth and later Cornell University, he was an avid fly fisherman. The book gives us some real scientific insight into why trout behave as they do. It is based in scientific facts, and there is not a lot of conjecture when it comes to investigating what makes a trout tick.

It is my real hope that discussions like this one will make us think more, see more, investigate more fully before we draw our conclusions. Fly fishing IS truly a learning experience, and it is a road of learning that seems endless. That is what is so much fun!

Mark

PS_Another wonderful book that's worth reading is Neversink by the late Leonard M. Wright, Jr. It not only holds a lot of great information that is quite revealing, it is also very entertaining.

[michaelgmcgraw]

The Complete Brown Trout was an early purchase & read in my younger days. Great book! I passed up Neversink a few months
ago, now I Have to get it.