Turle Knot (Turtle Knot)

Moderators: William Anderson, letumgo

User avatar
gingerdun
Posts: 1658
Joined: Mon Jan 09, 2012 10:00 pm
Location: Merrimac, Massachusetts

Turle Knot (Turtle Knot)

Post by gingerdun » Thu Jan 09, 2014 10:05 am

Forum members (Ray Tucker, Bob Dietz, Chris Stewart, etc) have noticed that some of Pete Hidy's flies were photographed with the tippet still in the eye, tied with the Turle knot. Dad called it the Turtle Knot, and illustrated it in his Sports Illustrated Book of Wet Fly Fishing (1961). Bob pointed out that the Turle knot held better with gut, and was less secure with nylon tippet. But Chris reports that his Dad, same generation as mine, only used the Turle knot, and only used nylon leaders. In the text below scanned from the Sports Illustrate book, Pete acknowledges the risk, suggesting tucking the tip back through the loop a second time as insurance. This is not shown in the illustration, unfortunately.

Image

As most of you know, Pete liked Up-Eye hooks. The reason was that with Turtle Knot, the fly would tend to drop its tail and point its eye toward the surface. Pete thought this body language of a fly about to escape from the water excited the fish. This knot is also relatively easy to tie, being nothing more than a common Slip Knot.

Image
User avatar
tie2fish
Posts: 5072
Joined: Sun Feb 22, 2009 9:11 am
Location: Harford County, MD

Re: Turle Knot (Turtle Knot)

Post by tie2fish » Thu Jan 09, 2014 10:30 am

Interesting and helpful. I believe I will give this a try next time out.
Some of the same morons who throw their trash around in National parks also vote. That alone would explain the state of American politics. ~ John Gierach, "Still Life with Brook Trout"
User avatar
chase creek
Posts: 1381
Joined: Tue Feb 24, 2009 11:00 am
Location: Ohio

Re: Turle Knot (Turtle Knot)

Post by chase creek » Thu Jan 09, 2014 11:02 am

I tried this knot a couple of times at the vise. Pretty easy. Think I'll give it a try. Only fishing here right now is for Snow Sharks.
"A thing is right when it tends to preserve the integrity, stability, and
beauty of the biotic community. It is wrong when it tends otherwise"
Aldo Leopold
MtBrittany
Posts: 8
Joined: Thu Jul 11, 2013 4:59 pm

Re: Turle Knot (Turtle Knot)

Post by MtBrittany » Thu Jan 09, 2014 11:28 am

Rene Harrop and Mike Lawson showed me this knot in January 1974. They indeed brought the end through the loop a second time and referred to it as a double turle knot. I have used this knot almost exclusively for all flies since then and (this is going to sound like a fisherman) can not remember this knot ever failing me in the last 40 years.

Rod
User avatar
Old Hat
Posts: 4204
Joined: Sat Nov 14, 2009 12:24 am
Location: Where Deet is a Cologne
Contact:

Re: Turle Knot (Turtle Knot)

Post by Old Hat » Thu Jan 09, 2014 12:14 pm

I use both the Improved Clinch Knot and the Turle Knot. I first started using the Turle when I began steelhead fishing. Consequently, often using up eye hooks. I would tie on a turle knot then add a riffle hitch dependent on the water. Never had any problem with them. When I got into flymph fishing and using up eye hooks I just naturally used the turle knot. I still use it today but only on up eye hooks. I use the improved clinch for all others. I have never used a riffle hitch on a trout fly though, don't know why. Might have to try it out. Anyone add this to the turle knot for trout flies?
I hate it when I think I'm buying organic vegetables, and when I get home I discover they are just regular donuts.
http://www.oldhatflytying.com
Greenwell
Posts: 346
Joined: Fri Apr 08, 2011 9:05 pm

Re: Turle Knot (Turtle Knot)

Post by Greenwell » Thu Jan 09, 2014 7:34 pm

Be careful with the Turle (Turtle) knot when using either monofilament or fluorocarbon.....it is highly prone to slipping.
This knot was developed by a Major Turle, a contemporary of Halford and an early dry fly pioneer, to attach flies to gut points, we would call them tippets today. Gut is much less prone to slipping than modern materials and it only takes a turn or two to form a secure knot on a hook eye whereas mono or fluoro need more turns.

The most secure knot for a through-the-eye-and-around-the-head connection with contemporary tippets is the Harvey Knot. Lefty Kreh says it tests 100% and I've used it, (when I'm not too lazy to tie it!) for many years. I don't believe I have ever had one fail, something I can't claim for any other knot. http://www.netknots.com/fishing_knots/h ... y-fly-knot

The up-eye hook was developed as an aid to tying early dry flies. It was simply easier to drop the loops of the finishing knot of silk over the up-eye than a down eye. The style was so prevalent that for decades dry flies were tied on up-eyes and wets were put on down-eyes and it became axiomatic for the angler or tier to choose his flies or hooks based on the position of the eye.
tjd
Posts: 363
Joined: Wed Sep 09, 2009 4:20 am

Re: Turle Knot (Turtle Knot)

Post by tjd » Fri Jan 10, 2014 11:35 am

Carl,

I sometimes fish a Riffling Hitch when night fishing for trout. It can be deadly, and gives a different look/presentation options.

Best,

Tim
User avatar
William Anderson
Site Admin
Posts: 4569
Joined: Mon Feb 23, 2009 3:14 pm
Location: Ashburn, VA 20148
Contact:

Re: Turle Knot (Turtle Knot)

Post by William Anderson » Mon Jan 13, 2014 9:20 am

Greenwell wrote:The up-eye hook was developed as an aid to tying early dry flies. It was simply easier to drop the loops of the finishing knot of silk over the up-eye than a down eye. The style was so prevalent that for decades dry flies were tied on up-eyes and wets were put on down-eyes and it became axiomatic for the angler or tier to choose his flies or hooks based on the position of the eye.
John and others, I have been thinking about this comment all weekend and around the edges of what I've been doing in the house, I find myself grabbing reference books from the 1880's through current authors. I have a couple of questions. There is an overlap apparently with the transition from eyeless hooks to eyed hooks. Is there a clear moment when eyed hooks became prominent?

More interesting to me is the notion that up eyed hooks were designated for dries and down eyed hooks for wets. There is some inconsistency here as well in the reference books (or at least the representative flies illustrated), but the best reference that I found to illustrate this period in my collection is Bob Church's Guide to Trout Flies (Wiltshire, 1987). As he presents a broad spectrum of UK flies, these depict the historic patterns in the way you've described - up eyed for dries, down eyed for wets. Of course as he presents more contemporary flies, they are almost exclusively down eyed, but it's still hard to decipher a clear period when this idea was prevalent, which ever knot you choose. Thanks for expanding my understanding of the history of hook design. I've been more of a progressive all my tying life insisting that the hooks that are right for my flies in my water are contemporary. But the background of the irons is really interesting, especially in trying to piece together the fly designs from decade to decade and water to water.

w
"A man should not try to eliminate his complexes, but rather come into accord with them. They are ultimately what directs his conduct in the world." Sigmund Freud.
www.WilliamsFavorite.com
Greenwell
Posts: 346
Joined: Fri Apr 08, 2011 9:05 pm

Re: Turle Knot (Turtle Knot)

Post by Greenwell » Mon Jan 13, 2014 9:52 am

Short answer: there was no clear delineation but it's use was excellarated by the advancement of dry fly techniques.
I'm away from my resources this week. I do know that Wade (1840's) pictured flies on eyed hooks. The issue was more about tippet, gut, horsehair, than lack of understanding of the principles involved.
Many felt that a wet fly to gut swam better whereas a dry fly would "crack off" due to repeated false casting if tied to a blind hook.
User avatar
hankaye
Posts: 6582
Joined: Tue Jun 08, 2010 4:59 pm
Location: Arrey, N.M. aka 32°52'37.63"N, 107°18'54.18"W

Re: Turle Knot (Turtle Knot)

Post by hankaye » Mon Jan 13, 2014 10:03 am

Howdy All;

In my copy of "The Masters on the Nymph" 1979 1st ed.
in the lower Left corner of pg. 133 (the Dave Whitlock
chapter), he (Dave), shows the Turle Knot with the extra
loop and shows it to be satisfactory for Up eye and Down
eye but, not so good for straight eye.
Perhaps someone with a scanner and a copy could post the page?

hank
Striving for a less complicated life since 1949...
"Every day I beat my own previous record for number
of consecutive days I've stayed alive." George Carlin
Post Reply