Hackles .... say "When!"

[Izaak]

Let's discuss .... hackle thickness.

I know, I know, it's a touchy subject! But let me start the conversation, get the ball rolling, and maybe it will help others out there feel that they can talk about it, maybe share their story with us..... I'll start....

My name is Tom, and I'm a heavy hackler.... and I feel bad about it, but it's the truth, and I've been doing it for many years. I've tried to stop but I just keep going back to it over and over again. I think I need help. Maybe someone out there can share something that they have learned that helps them, that might help me and others get over this bad habit. Or maybe others would just like to share their story, get whatever it is off their chest, confess your sins, whatever. Regardless of your feelings about this subject, or the situation you find yourself in, I'm sure that others would be glad to hear what you have to say and that we can all learn from each other, how to accept each other despite our differences, our strengths and weaknesses, but most especially.... learn how to accept ourselves!

Tom

[Smuggler]

Got a pretty good laugh out of the way you started this lol.

I used to hackle pretty heavily and sometimes, depending on the pattern I still do. Most of the time now though I do hackle my flies sparsely.
What helped me was, when preparing my hackle for tie-in I'd strip the one side completely and a couple barbs on the remaining side and said to myself, ok this is what you got to work with, do it to it. I've done that so many times now, now that's how I prepare all my hackles. Kinda just stuck with me.

[Mataura mayfly]

Tom, welcome to "heavy hackler's anonymous!"
My name is Jeff and I am possibly a founding member. Anyone that has had a swap fly from me can possibly vouch for this.

I have answered a bit of your question elsewhere and believe the "sparse" soft hackle to be slightly more American orientated and aimed at skinnier water where fish are up close and personal and they can scrutinise a fly well to decide if it is dinner or not. Much the same as a lot of American rods are sub #5 weight, hardly anyone here fishes for trout with a sub #5 rod weight, same with our sub surface flies, a lot of them tend to be more heavily dressed and hackled than ones you may be more used to looking at over there. A classic is the Hares Ear, one tied here is very "plump" an well dressed, the Hare fur forming bulk, rather than a subtle life giving aurora with the base thread colour showing through.

But I digress, with hackle on wee wets or soft hackle styles, I like three turns of the full feather, no one side stripping or just 1-1 1/2 turns here.

[Old Hat]

Great opener.

I'll start off with a disclaimer. I honestly don't think there is a right or wrong hear, only differences of opinion and I think both heavy and sparse have their place. I tie both sparse and heavier hackle. Purposefully. I like to keep the hackle on my wet spiders sparse, but not real sparse. I don't count wraps, I just go by what the hackle tells me. There is a lot of differences in barb count and fiber density between various hackles. For a sparse hackle, I would say that I average 2 full turns of hackle as a guideline. Maybe slightly more for game bird hackles as they tend to strip off easily on strikes. But for hen, less is more when it comes to fishing a wet. I may just be blowing smoke, but I feel a heavy hackled hen pattern will miss out on a lot of the movement that I feel is needed in the action of the fly. Not quite as important with game bird hackle as it is much more soft. Too much hen and your just pushing water like a sunken dry.

Now I will intentionally tie a spider with a heavier hackle if the pattern will be fished upstream and in or on the surface. I also often add a tail for these patterns as well. I fish my heavier hackled wets in two circumstances: upstream or in cascading (steep slope, pocket pool, chute type) streams. Fishing the cascades, I do nothing to the fly generally. I just place it where I want and let the turbulent water work its magic. If I am predominantly fishing upstream, I will often use a dry desiccant on the heavier hackled fly to get it to stay on or in the surface zone longer. In fact, Ive mentioned this before, I use genetic hen cape hackle for most of my dry flies instead of specific "dry fly hackle". It is cheaper (by a lot) and I think works as well if not better than the overly stiff dry fly hackle.

[fflutterffly]

It's to painful to discuss so for now just call me "X". I have myself for hours closed up in a small room surrounded by feathers and yes, OMG this is hard to say, packages of hackles. I feel better already. I use to find myself judging the amount of hackle I placed on the collar on a criterium of how well I thought it would look to the fish, but that was silly. The more I thought of it the deeper my confusion and the more confusion I experienced the angst of not having enough hackle grew. I couldn't stop myself. Then one day I decided, while watching fish porn, yes FISH PORN, I notice the hackles where done lightly. How could that be? So I began to watch more and more and, though I didn't go blind, I did learn something interesting… I began to count… yes count the amount of turns of hackle. I first limited it to three and now even twice. (hear the deep sigh!) It's all true counting the turns helped me correct what many think is a terrible problem. I still sneak in a turn or two extra on flies, but I catch myself. My mantra: count, count, count.

[crazy4oldcars]

My name is.............Kirk , and I'm a heavy hackler. "I still have feather left. I can get another turn out of it."
I, too, will look at the fly and wish I had of used less hackle. I promise myself I'll do better next time. Most of the "practice flies" from the lost nymphs swap were training myself to use less hackle.
I think my next hackling issue to work on is to stop binding down on the front of the hackle to let it sit more erect. Most of my hackles are sloped sharply toward the bend of the hook. That's fine if it is what is called for.
Maybe I'll get a long, heavy hook and just practice applying hackle. Over and over til I get it right. Every time.

Kirk

[Kelly L.]

LOL...love the subject line here. I don't need to tell anyone here I am a heavy handed hackler. You all already know.
I have made a 3 turn limit. (full hackle, usually not stripped off on one side) I can't help it, it just pleases me with that extra
bit of hackle. Besides, the fish pull some off anyway right? I came from a line of thought, too much, is better, than not enough.
I know many will disagree. That is okay. If you only do two turns, I won't hold it against you....rotflmbo.

[hankaye]

Hi, my name is hank ...

A long time ago, ... way back in Dec. of 2010 I posted my first fly on here
in this forum; http://flymphforum.com/viewtopic.php?f= ... 817#p11817
Some of the comments were stricken from the forum but the gist was that my hackling was a bit over done. The
conversation does still have a nice swing to both trains of thought.
I'll just sit along the sidelines and read what all everyone else has to say.

hank

[William Anderson]

Hank, what a fantastic link. There are so many rich conversations stored away here, I hope you make it your mission to bring these to light when they apply. Nice fly btw.

Tom, I'll share what I have been doing for some time. First, I couldn't agree with Carl more. It all depends on the nature and quality of the hackle and the water conditions and the water column intended. Not an easy solution to be found if you're looking for a straight answer.

In terms of technique, my tying is fairly uniform. I can't recall the last time I've tied a hackle in by the tip, it's always by the stem with the hackle stretched out over the eye. When I'm using a hen cape, I set myself up for a sparse result by stripping one side of the hackle completely. I find the sweet spot where the length gives the desired effect, depending on the mobility of the barbs and usually take three turns or as many as four, which will give me the barb count of two turns or less. I bring my tying thread back up through the hackle and it's a very sturdy construction. The same is true with game feathers, usually. There are some that only allow for a turn or two and those are not stripped on one side, but the hackle itself limits the number of turns. Either way its a fairly sparse affair. I fish a lot of my patterns upstream and in the film and usually have the activity of each barb in mind as I wrap them. That might not be entirely helpful, but hopefully with enough input from others you'll have enough opinions to thoroughly confuse the issue.

I find your hackling with the hen and the game feathers to be exceptional. Maybe a turn more than what I tie, but I can't imagine you'll get any complaints when these are presented. The hackle on the hare and partridge pattern is what I aspire to. Nicely done.

w

[Johnno]

I'm going the other way.. To the point where I don't use much hackle if any on my dries in particular. Damp flies are more effective anyway. dry fly Hackles are so ridiculously expensive and there are so many alternatives it's not funny. For wets and nymphs the less the better. The PTN ( Sawyers and associated versions) are never hackled and for me they are the most fish catchingest flies I have.

As for wets... Sparse Spun Rubber hackles pples. Awesome... The new millennium of wet fly hackles.