dubbing block bodies

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dubbing block bodies

Post by zen leecher » Sun Jan 19, 2014 4:21 pm

Last week a pair of dubbing blocks from William arrived and today was the day to experiment with them. I made a light colored body as that's the color flies that were hatching a week ago when I was out.

While making the body I had the thought "how small of a hook can these be used on without having too bulky of a body?" How small of a hook can be used and if one wants to go smaller does one 1) prepare the twisted bodies by splitting the silk/thread, or 2) does one use touch dubbing on the tying thread silk and get a smaller body that way.

Bill W
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Re: dubbing block bodies

Post by William Anderson » Sun Jan 19, 2014 4:44 pm

zen leecher wrote:Last week a pair of dubbing blocks from William arrived and today was the day to experiment with them. I made a light colored body as that's the color flies that were hatching a week ago when I was out.

While making the body I had the thought "how small of a hook can these be used on without having too bulky of a body?" How small of a hook can be used and if one wants to go smaller does one 1) prepare the twisted bodies by splitting the silk/thread, or 2) does one use touch dubbing on the tying thread silk and get a smaller body that way.

Bill W
Bill, I'm glad to hear you're working with the pre-spun bodies. I've been doing the same this weekend and every time I sit to prepare a few dozen bodies, I learn something new. It just takes some practice. I might suggest a couple of points. When you're starting to figure out the amount of dubbing needed for the pre-spun body, it's not difficult if you imagine as if you were sitting at the vise preparing a drop loop or split thread. How much dubbing do you really want on this fly? About half of what you think you'll need for spinning a body. Working with mole or muskrat first, on primrose, straw or ash is a great way to get started because the fibers are so easy to manipulate as you're trying to find the correct taper, density and length. The beauty of the block is how you can manage some coarse materials with more finesse, but practice with something less fussy to help gauge the density.

To the question of pattern sizes or hook sizes, there's no right answer of course. For patterns #18 or smaller, I touch dub as the pre spun body is just a lot of material to maintain a consistent proportion as you would prefer in a larger size. #16's, depending on the hook are easy enough with the pre spun bodies. Then it becomes a matter of caddis flies requiring a wider body, manipulating the fibers to radiate perpendicular to the thread for a fuller body, and the amount of dubbing used to get the density. It's quite a bit more than what you might use for a mayfly, especially a delicate pattern. I've also been fooling with spinning bodies - and this is where the ½" markings on top are a real bonus - tied short, 1"-1 ½" for fat little caddis bodies, or with a hint of dubbing for something like a #16 BWO. For some time I've tied most all of the bodies assuming I was going to tie a #12 pattern and then use the taper from near bare thread to the point where I tie off behind the hackle, whether it's a #16 or a #12, and the remainder of the body is waste. I've more recently been building bodies very mindful of the exact pattern and size to be tied and creating just the length of body needed. This might seem like an odd point, until you've got 11" of silk waxed up and a 4" block, it's very difficult to use the restraint to create a 1 ½" body, but you've taken this much time and effort to do something really well and explore a technique that is a real joy to accomplish, so the extra silk is a wash. I have made a number of shorter blocks, as Richard Clark did, for smaller bodies. It saves a whole 1" or 2". :D But it's been interesting.

I'm rambling, and the answer to your question could easily have been stated in a simple sentence. #18 and under...touch dub it.

I'll try to get some pics of the cards, or at least some less ideal scans for references. I am looking forward to seeing what you come up with and the flies you produce.

There are quite a number here who have been using the blocks and can offer likely a contradictory opinion. I have found that everyone who has pursued these bodies has their own techniques and nuances. I'd love to hear those as well.

Sorry for the length.

w
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Re: dubbing block bodies

Post by zen leecher » Sun Jan 19, 2014 6:29 pm

Thanks for the answer and that's what I kinda figured.
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Re: dubbing block bodies

Post by Old Hat » Mon Jan 20, 2014 2:13 am

Just for fun. I did this a while back. #24 with dubbing strand done on block. I think I used Griffith's 14/0 thread. I found these little up eye hooks and had to try it.

I agree with William. Under #18's it is more practical to just touch dub. But you can go small with the dubbing block.

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Re: dubbing block bodies

Post by gingerdun » Mon Jan 20, 2014 12:19 pm

Bill, your questions are ones that others of us keep asking, even after using the Clark block for a while. William's information is reliable as usual. The half-inch marks are helpful for sizing to hooks, as he says.
Old Hat, where did you get the giant penny? ;)

One minor point that I have changed recently is that I only wax the section of the 11-inch thread that the dubbing is laid upon. This minimizes the discoloration caused by the wax, but still gives helpful tackiness when arranging the dubbing fibers. I like a fairly tacky wax because it makes this job easier.

A couple of other notes:
Only silk thread holds the twist. Synthetics will unwind and fall apart.
Storing the brushes for a day or two before using is the rule. However, when I am impatient, I will use it within fifteen minutes. It will unwind slightly, but once it is lashed onto the hook, it is easy to tighten the twist again, with no harm to the dubbing. For immediate use, waxing the entire thread can help preserve the twist.

Below are scans that might shed light on how Pete Hidy varied the dubbings with muskrat, one of his standby materials.
Notice the tapers, and the changing densities.
Pete tied mostly in the 12 to 16 range, occasionally going to an 18.

Image

The first brush below, with just a small puff of dubbing in the middle, has a sprinkling of fibers to the right of the puff. He may have intended this for a small hook, but it also could have been for a sparsely-dubbed size 14. This is a very hi-res image, so if you click on it, you may be able to zoom in and see the textures.

Image
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Re: dubbing block bodies

Post by Old Hat » Mon Jan 20, 2014 1:22 pm

Lance I don't usually use the Griffith's thread, but I have noticed that the twist still holds with threads that are non silk, at least with the fine Griffith's. I attributed this to the wax. I am using the Leisenring wax from Jim. It is very hard when cold and takes a while to soften and warm. A bit tacky, but I think after it cures for a day or two it hardens up again somewhat cementing the strand and keeping the twist.
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Re: dubbing block bodies

Post by gingerdun » Mon Jan 20, 2014 2:44 pm

Carl,
Thanks for this information. I hadn't tried the Griffiths, but will. Your point about the effect of certain waxes is also pertinent. It would be nice not to be limited to silk, especially because it is impossibly bulky for tiny flies.
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Re: dubbing block bodies

Post by chase creek » Mon Jan 20, 2014 3:45 pm

Good discussion. I use Griffith's Sheer 14/0 quite a bit with the dubbing block. I do wax the entire thread also, and place them on the card right away. Sometimes I will go directly from the block to the hook. The thread does untwist a bit, but I usually clamp small English hackle pliers to the dangling end. If it untwists a bit, it's easy enough to give the pliers a spin to tighten the twist back up. As far as the proper amount or length of dubbing to prepare for a certain size hook, prefer to have too much as opposed to too little. Judging the amount of body dubbing and the proper amount of dubbing for the thorax I find is a challenge. I guess practise here is the answer.
I normally tie 12-16's, so the difference in dubbing amount is not that great. I usually hurt myself trying to tie anything much smaller.
(By the way, I think that penny of Carl's is about 3 1/2 inches in diameter.)
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Re: dubbing block bodies

Post by zen leecher » Mon Jan 20, 2014 9:42 pm

gingerdun wrote:Bill, your questions are ones that others of us keep asking, even after using the Clark block for a while. William's information is reliable as usual. The half-inch marks are helpful for sizing to hooks, as he says.
Old Hat, where did you get the giant penny? ;)

One minor point that I have changed recently is that I only wax the section of the 11-inch thread that the dubbing is laid upon. This minimizes the discoloration caused by the wax, but still gives helpful tackiness when arranging the dubbing fibers. I like a fairly tacky wax because it makes this job easier.

A couple of other notes:
Only silk thread holds the twist. Synthetics will unwind and fall apart.
Storing the brushes for a day or two before using is the rule. However, when I am impatient, I will use it within fifteen minutes. It will unwind slightly, but once it is lashed onto the hook, it is easy to tighten the twist again, with no harm to the dubbing. For immediate use, waxing the entire thread can help preserve the twist.

Below are scans that might shed light on how Pete Hidy varied the dubbings with muskrat, one of his standby materials.
Notice the tapers, and the changing densities.
Pete tied mostly in the 12 to 16 range, occasionally going to an 18.

Image

The first brush below, with just a small puff of dubbing in the middle, has a sprinkling of fibers to the right of the puff. He may have intended this for a small hook, but it also could have been for a sparsely-dubbed size 14. This is a very hi-res image, so if you click on it, you may be able to zoom in and see the textures.

Image

Thanks for the tip about allowing the dubbing threads to "set" overnight. I spun my first one before yesterday mornings post and I'll get it out and check out the "set".
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Re: dubbing block bodies

Post by redietz » Mon Jan 20, 2014 11:21 pm

gingerdun wrote: Only silk thread holds the twist. Synthetics will unwind and fall apart.
I'm wondering something here. Pearsall's silk is twisted backward to most synthetics. In the former, twisting counter-clockwise* tightens the thread; in the latter, it flattens it. Do you habitually twist the strands the same direction each time? Maybe it's more the direction of the twist than material.

(* as seen looking down at the bobbin holder when tightening or flattening. I suppose it's the other way looking at it from the point of view of the spool.)
Bob
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