FLYMPH FORUM

So Old Hat see if I understand what you are saying:
L is simply allowing the fly to swing. Period. This is lifting it through the different water columns. Simple. No physical motion of the tip is implied.

Dubbn: Point taken on the Jerk. But that is not the word I should have used. it is too strong a motion. I simply give the rod tip a small ' bump' to the final or end of my drift which makes the fly rise up in the column and moves the hackles.

Love all this input.

Howdy All;

I'll try to be shorter this time.
Taking what Lance mentioned about JL's writing skills
and his education. 8th grade was almost a norm back then.
I went and re-read the quoted section of manuscript that
Lance provided us and tried to imagine someone talking to
another alongside a stream. Some of the syntax is rough and
allows the reader to draw, perhaps, a different conclusion than what
JL was intending. Here's an example.
" You see we are standing on this side of the stream, the right hand side. If you look upstream now, watch that big brute over there. Now get ready. "

If it had been written this way;
You see we are standing on this side of the stream, the right hand side if you look upstream. Now watch that big brute
over there. Now, get ready.
what is the meaning now? Would this help eliminate some of the confusion?
When JL says "over there" I believe it to mean towards the Left side of the stream and 'the Brute' could be anywhere
over there, from slightly up stream to down stream some distance.

I do agree with Old/New Hat that the 'Lift' is accomplished by arresting the movement of the rod
and allowing the resulting pull of the current to raise the fly up through the water column.

hank

Yes fflutterfly. That is what I mean. It is supported time and time again in the transcript. "The water is slowly lifting the line and fly" "the current is swinging the fly up and away from the trout" The water pressure against your line causes the fly to rise slowly" "this is done naturally by the water and by you holding your rod stationary" "i do not try to put any fancy movements to my fly with my rod" "the water will do all that is required to make a well-tied fly the most deadly thing.."

The "lift" is not an action by the angler. It is the natural reaction of the fly and line when the tension of a stationary rod, line and fly become greater than the pull (drag) from the velocity of the current. Also he describes that this drag increases the "breathing" of the hackles as the line and fly rises. He may or may not have known it, but this is consistent with water velocity along a moving water cross section. The fastest water current is just under the surface. The slowest is along the bottom. The substrate creates friction and turbulence. As distance from this turbulence increases, water velocity increases until the interface of the water's surface and air where it is slightly slower again.

Since you brought it up Hank, I believe that the fish's position is across the current from the angler. Maybe slightly up or down, but not significantly. If the fish is too far downstream, a cast directly above the fish's position will not be able to find the "Point of Deadliness" before it starts to curve without stripping out line to reach the fish during the dead drift "bump de bump" or casting to a position further that the current seam the fish is in . Too far upstream and you can't stop the rod and not have the line swing into you. He says, "See that big fellow lying over there?" He says "over there" not "up there" or "down there". Fisherman talk up, down or across stream naturally when explaining position. If the fish was significantly downstream or upstream, I think he would have mentioned that, as he uses those terms often.

Well reasoned and well said, Carl.

OK, this is how I see it. Of course, we all wear a different set of goggles.

Now, I am just building this from the transcript only. I don't actually agree with this as the best method entirely. I perform the lift very similar to this but with a little addition.

I don't keep the rod stationary, but I don't just lift the fly either. I do let the current lift the fly and line. These are soft hackled flies. Once they are not free drifting and begin to ascend due to the current the force against the current causes the hackle to collapse around the body of the fly. The hackles will not become as lively as Leisenring states, unless there is a very slow current or a lot of turbulence. Once the fly and line hit that Point of Deadliness, I like to "pulse" my rod tip by slightly raising and lowering it in about a 6-inch path. What this does is increase then decrease the tension on the fly causing the hackles to "breath" as Leisenring says. You can think of the fly ascending a flight of stairs with a step, pause, step, pause, step instead of just a dead swing as it moves down stream and across the current. It is a slight movement but just enough to get the hackles to move and look alive. You can try this on a short line so you can see the fly, it is quite obvious.

Old/New Hat, Howdy;

Very well thought out and stated. Truly enjoy the insert,
especially since it expands when I click on it. Makes a
tremendous amount of sense.

hank

Wonderful addition Carl. Did you create this graphic for this discussion? Very well done.

Lol. Yes.

Carl - I was thinking you may have created the graphic for your website.

Neat addition Carl.
To my own way of thinking, that demonstration is neither upstream nor downstream..... that is across. I can see the merit and how it would work, it is just not an option I would use much here. It is another of those geographic things, types of water and approaching trout at right angles here usually ends up with the trout being spooked long before the flies reach the "Deadly zone".

By the way, next time you are "timed out" adding a long post, hit the submit button and get refused..... try hitting the "back" button on your browser, it should return you to the add a reply page complete with all your hard work still retained in the text box...... has worked for me in the past and saved a lot of cussing.