Three days on the White River

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Fishnkilts
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Re: Three days on the White River

Post by Fishnkilts » Thu Aug 13, 2020 9:40 pm

Johnno wrote:
Thu Aug 13, 2020 1:49 pm
Are whitefish native to the river?
My nephew who lives in Meeker & fishes the river as much as he can says they are native in this river.

As I write this post, I'm actually back here in Meeker.
I fished the same area as before, but I tried something a little different.

I don't think they are considered as a flymph so forgive me for this post, but I thought I'd try something these fish have never seen. I was using Frank Sawyer's Killer Bug.

The whitefish hit these flies with authority & the rainbows didn't ignore them either. These flies found a permanent home in one of my boxes.
Johnno
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Re: Three days on the White River

Post by Johnno » Fri Aug 14, 2020 2:11 am

Ok. So if they are native why the need to be rid of them or reduce their numbers?

Because they are not as desirable as a trout?

Weird given them seem to be a fairly good sporting fish in their own right.

Seems strange to me that we as humans should impose our values on a creature native to the said environment just to suit our desires. That fish was there long before we were.

I’m not getting at you but it’s just an observation.

I/We see this in all sorts of places. Killing sharks for instance in Australia because they attack surfers is a classic example.

It’s the fish’s environment and their home. Who are we to remove them or reduce them because it suits us to do so.
There are instances with vegetation, feather and fur as well, not just fish.

We are such an arrogant species ...... a virus that really doesn’t deserve the privileged position we occupy on this planet....
DUBBN
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Re: Three days on the White River

Post by DUBBN » Fri Aug 14, 2020 12:33 pm

Johnno wrote:
Fri Aug 14, 2020 2:11 am
Ok. So if they are native why the need to be rid of them or reduce their numbers?

Because they are not as desirable as a trout?

Weird given them seem to be a fairly good sporting fish in their own right.

Seems strange to me that we as humans should impose our values on a creature native to the said environment just to suit our desires. That fish was there long before we were.

I’m not getting at you but it’s just an observation.

I/We see this in all sorts of places. Killing sharks for instance in Australia because they attack surfers is a classic example.

It’s the fish’s environment and their home. Who are we to remove them or reduce them because it suits us to do so.
There are instances with vegetation, feather and fur as well, not just fish.

We are such an arrogant species ...... a virus that really doesn’t deserve the privileged position we occupy on this planet....
I am not seeing anything in this post that would suggest anyone wants the White Fish removed.

Are you simply upset that non-native fish were introduced 120 years ago?
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redietz
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Re: Three days on the White River

Post by redietz » Fri Aug 14, 2020 9:10 pm

DUBBN wrote:
Thu Aug 13, 2020 1:52 pm
Johnno wrote:
Thu Aug 13, 2020 1:49 pm
Are whitefish native to the river?
Yes they are.
And rainbows aren't.
Bob
DUBBN
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Re: Three days on the White River

Post by DUBBN » Fri Aug 14, 2020 9:32 pm

redietz wrote:
Fri Aug 14, 2020 9:10 pm
DUBBN wrote:
Thu Aug 13, 2020 1:52 pm
Johnno wrote:
Thu Aug 13, 2020 1:49 pm
Are whitefish native to the river?
Yes they are.
And rainbows aren't.
Good response. I am still at a loss what the gripe is.
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redietz
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Re: Three days on the White River

Post by redietz » Fri Aug 14, 2020 11:10 pm

I think he was commenting on this sentence: "The whitefish needs to be cleaned out a bit ( actually a lot ) so the trout can make a comeback. "

It seems a bit odd to say that the introduced species could even "make a comeback" against the native species when it wasn't there in the first place. Without placing a value judgement about which is the more desirable species, the semantics of the sentence seems wrong.

It seems to me that the only trout in Colorado that could "make a comeback" are the various subspecies of cutthroat. And I suspect that if that were the desirable goal (not saying it necessarily it should be) it would be the rainbows that should be culled, not the whitefish. (Disclaimer:I don't know the history of that particular river; maybe it never had trout in the first place.) Cutthroats and whitefish have co-existed in the Rockies since at least the last ice age.
Bob
Fishnkilts
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Re: Three days on the White River

Post by Fishnkilts » Sat Aug 15, 2020 6:26 pm

I'll try and explain my comment a little better & please keep in mind this is just my opinion.

From what I understand is the whirling disease pretty much wiped out the rainbow population in the White River, like many rivers in Colorado. While the rainbows numbers were very low the whitefish pretty much took over. And why not? They belong there.

And to answer one persons question, no, rainbows are not native to Colorado & neither are the browns or brookies.

Personally, and this is just my opinion, I don't want to see the whitefish population as low as the trout population is, I would love to see a balanced population of both fish thriving, giving a little diversity for the fishermen. Its true that there is no bag limit on the whitefish & I think its to help with the trout to some what reproduce and gain in numbers.

Brookies & cutthroat are pretty much found in the same rivers & creeks here in CO., and the brookies are pushing the cutthroats out. What CO. needs to do is up the bag limit on brookies so the cutt's can survive. Every year I fish a creek that has both species, & I am seeing less & less cutt's every year.

They just stocked 700 greenback cutt's in the upper region if the Cache La Poudre River in an area that's above some falls in a fishless part of that area. This way, the non native brookies can't get to them. They will be stocking this section with greenbacks for a few more years & with any luck they will thrive in a natural hatchery environment just like the grayling have up above in Joe Wright Creek. How the grayling got to this area was a happy mistake. They were stocked I believe in Chamberlain Lake & somehow escaped & entered into Joe Wright Res. & then got below the dam into the creek. It has now become a natural hatchery for them and the fishing is limited from July 31 to Dec.

Trust me, I love fishing for whitefish, but I'd like to see the trout come back a bit just to give it a bit more variety.

Down below Meeker you find pike in the river & they have a bounty on them right now. No limit & $20 a fish you will receive.

The problem with the White River is there is so much private water its hard sometimes to know what's private or not because in CO. land owners do not have to put up signs, so its all on the fisherman to know. Easier said than done at times.

So the area I fish most is right below where the North & South White Rivers merge. Its a fisherman's dream for a high number of catches & it is sporting. I'd just like to see the trout become a bit more populated. After all, the State spent lots of money to restock the river with the ( I might have the name wrong ) Hoffman strain of rainbows. Is that the correct species name? I believe it is. So why spend the money to help bring up the numbers, not necessarily "bring back" a fish specie, but just help raise the numbers. The stocking doesn't seem to be working that well, so maybe taking out some whitefish to help the trout population. I'd like to see whitefish in more waters here as long as its controlled properly, & that's easier said than done too.

Does that make a better understanding if my earlier post?
DUBBN
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Re: Three days on the White River

Post by DUBBN » Sat Aug 15, 2020 7:12 pm

It is the Hofer strain of Rainbows that were brought back to Colorado from Germany. The Germans received the Rainbows at the turn of the century from wild fish from the Gunnison River.

The German fish have been exposed to Whirling disease all those many years and built up an immunity.

The first Hofer strain and crosses were released back in to the Gunnison River where they have done well for close to 20 years.

Now, the CPW is trying to introduce Hofer crosses in all Colorado drainages.

As a side note, most wild Rainbow trout in Colorado can trace their lineage to the Kamloop Rainbows of British Columbia.

The Whitefish populations are taking a dive. In the entire state. Whitefish are just as seciptable to Whirling Disease as are Rainbows and Native Cutthroats.

The sad part is catching and keeping the Whitefish may not have an impact on their decline. Whirling Disease can decimate populations in just one generation.

I do not keep the Mountain Whitefish anymore. A species in decline is sad. Especially when there is not much that can be done about it.

I am surprised the Browns have not taken over the niche in the ecosystem that the Rainbows vacated. They certainly have on the Gunnison in the canyon and the gorge. Even with the Hofer strain fish, the Browns are king. I wish a bounty was placed on them.

There is whirling disease info and how it relates to the Whitefish on one of the links I posted earlier on this thread. I suggest people read it throughly before judging the Colorado Parks and Wildlife and the limits they set on native and non-native fish that reside in the Whiteriver.
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redietz
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Re: Three days on the White River

Post by redietz » Sat Aug 15, 2020 9:58 pm

I would agree that browns and brookies have a harmful effect on the native cutts and whitefish -- just as they've had a harmful effect on native rainbow populations in California. And whirling disease is nobody's friend. I can't see why one would want to cull browns to favor rainbows in the Rockies, though. Neither are native, and at least the browns don't hybridize with the cutts.
Bob
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