Approaching Stoneflies with spider patterns

[Old Hat]

So, one of Bill's posts in the pattern section (brown shiner) got me thinking about spider patterns for stoneflies. There are quite a few classic patterns out there and I have tried a good number of them. To be honest, I haven't had much luck. I'm not sure what the variable is that is missing or is it just that spider patterns are not the answer to stoneflies. One significant point is, in my location, most of our stoneflies are fairly big to enormous. About the smallest I would go is a #12 hook for an immature stonefly. The average stonefly in my streams are in the #8-10 range and many hitting the #4-#6 range. I think this creates a bit of a dilemma when trying to use many of these simplistic classic patterns to represent these stoneflies. The profile is just not there. We do have a smaller little brown or winter stonefly that runs #12-#14 in size. this is about the only stonefly I have been able to consistantly target with success. The pattern I use here is a full bodied classic Leisenring style fly. Hackle palmered over the front 1/3 of the fly. How, do I fish it for success?, I have to grease it and float it in the film just under brushy areas. I think it is taken for a fallen adult. This leads me to what I think is another significant point. Stoneflies don't emerge underwater. The nymphs crawl out along the bottom to shore and emerge on dry land into the adult. So 95% of the time they are available to fish while crawling to shore or as an egg laying or fallen adult. Very rarely are they available in the water column. This is a dilemma for me and my love of spider patterns and soft hackles. I don't think I have ever caught a fish on spider (thread bodied) pattern. At least not where I was confident that the fish was taking the pattern for a stonefly.

So here is the discussion, how do you approach fishing stonefly patterns? What patterns have you found productive? What important fishing techniques or pattern features have you employed to get at this hatch? An inquiring mind wants to know.

This might be a good focus for a fly swap....

[tie2fish]

I can readily understand how trying to fish spiders for large Western stoneflies could present a problem, although I've seen spider-style flies tied on larger (#6-8) hooks (Ray's POP series) that might work. The literature, or at least parts of it that I've read, is full of references to spider patterns being used to imitate stoneflies, so there must be a phase or two of their life cycle where the slim body and soft hackle collar profile looks to fish like something they're currently eating. My best guess would be that in fast, tumbling water, quite a few stonefly nymphs become dislodged and are carried along in the current until they find something to latch onto. During that period, I think that a spider pattern could well look like a floating nymph. I have caught trout by drifting spider patterns through the riffles or broken water seams while there were stoneflies about, but I have no idea whether or not they (the fish) actually took the flies for stoneflies.

[William Anderson]

I think it is taken for a fallen adult. This leads me to what I think is another significant point. Stoneflies don't emerge underwater. The nymphs crawl out along the bottom to shore and emerge on dry land into the adult. So 95% of the time they are available to fish while crawling to shore or as an egg laying or fallen adult. Very rarely are they available in the water column.

This might be a good focus for a fly swap....

Carl, I really cant imagine fishing something the size of the hook shank to represent something as thick as a pencil (in your area). I only have two comments (which is actually not bad for me. ) First, I read somewhere, one of those things that registers and sticks with you, that when you're fishing egg laying adults, spinners, drowns, cripples, even ants and hoppers, that anything that falls into a pool, even at the very edge gets funneled toward the center and tumbled as it moves from one pool to the next. So unless the thing is taken in the place where it falls or in an eddy, it will present itself like everything else the spills through. I've always imagined that when I'm thinking of spent or drowned insects, and expecting to represent them dead drift from the head of a pool to the tail. Granted, our streams are much smaller by comparison and I can see where something in the water on a glide in Henry's Fork would not find that centered/tumbled/mid-water column. Second, and specific to stonefies, I only ever think of them in drown, adult form, usually little black, brown or yellow guys sizes 14-16. But that's just on our end of things.

[CreationBear]

I think it is taken for a fallen adult.

All my softhackles end up looking like Stimulators, so I'm good to go....

Your question actually reinforces some doubts I've had recently about the "scalability" of fly patterns. What I'm starting to suspect is that there a "sweet spot" in terms of hookshank length, say, somewhere between a #12 and a #16, that gives you enough space to tie on enough stuff to make the fly look "natural," but is compact enough that its inherent rigidity isn't noticeable, or at least isn't a negative trigger. Start in with the #4 to #10 TMC 200's, though, and I think "rigidity" starts to come into play--the reason why there are so many "wiggle-nymph" patterns for hex's, no doubt. Another, related, possibility might have to do with buoyancy issues--all that dubbing and hackle might make the fly ride a lot of higher in the water column, well above the Charlie Brooks pattern that's tumbling along the bottom with the naturals.

As a bit of a tangent, the dedicated Tenkara anglers I've watched have me really thinking about patterns that are more suited to "manipulation" than to dead-drifts--the classic Tenkara approach is the ADD-version of the Leisenring Lift --so a lot of the "softhackles" I've posted on the board lately were really conceived as caddis emergers that I intend to pulse at flank-speed through the riffles this fall. It might be that your "soft stones" would benefit from a more aggressive retrieve--of course, then, you wouldn't know if they weren't be taken as fry or crayfish!

[michaelgmcgraw]

A Heathen Speaks! In your or Dubbn's case I would say go with a Stonefly Nymph pattern of the matching size/ species. Smaller Stoneflies go with the buggy looking Flymph. That's just my thoughts on this.

[Soft-hackle]

http://www.flymphforum.com/viewtopic.ph ... 9&p=51#p51

http://www.libstudio.com/FS&S/html/blac ... lymph.html

I've had success fishing these in the surface film, treated with floatant. Some thoughts might be given to mixing CDC in with regular hackle for these.

Mark

PS-I've also fished these as nymphs in the shallower areas.

[willowhead]

Great thread.........personally i've never fished a Spider hoping it would fool a Trout into takin' it for a Stonefly nynph, or havin' anything to do with a "hatch."
i would definately like to get in a swap having to do with such bugs though..........as long as the due date wouldn't be until at least Thankxgiving. i was bout to say Halloween.....but that's much to soon. Let's keep it to 20 tyers or less though.

[DNicolson]

There seems to be quite a bit of confusion about spiders and stone-flies.
I think that many of the traditional silk bodied spiders are meant to simulate
European stone-flies, which are much smaller than North American stone-flies.
I am not a 100% sure about this, but will do some research into European stone-fly sizes .

[skunkaroo]

There seems to be quite a bit of confusion about spiders and stone-flies.
I think that many of the traditional silk bodied spiders are meant to simulate
European stone-flies, which are much smaller than North American stone-flies.
I am not a 100% sure about this, but will do some research into European stone-fly sizes .

I believe you are correct, Donald. We have plenty of small stones in NA as well, but we also have monsters reaching 3" or more in length. Luckily the trout prefer something a little more manageable in size and we can get away with #6 or #8 longshank hooks. I often take trout on an inch long Czech stonefly imitation so the size would be in reach of the soft hackle for sure.

If you're aiming for imitating the adult, big and fuzzy is key. While a traditional soft hackle would do in a pinch, a palmered style would probably be better suited. For the nymph or emerger I would think a flymph style fly with an open wound hackle a la Charlie Brook's (?) pattern would be better.

Aaron

[FliTrap]

May I share a pattern here that works well for a troubling Stonefly!
I tie these in sizes 8-12, using a heavy wire hook, typically a (2x or 3x lg, nymph hook, for a bit more wt.). Body ins "awesome possum", tied in good taper back to front, working towards what Donald described as "big and fuzzy". As a rib I step a bit out of tradition, but like the effects of using a Midge size Diamond Braid", in a contrasting color! Finish with 2-3 turns of hen hackle, to compliment the body. The Midge size braid works well with this size of hook.... who would of thought....
My all time fav for those little clinger type stone flies!
Black Body, with a light blue rib, black hen hackle!
In tying, I focus on drawing the rib deep into the dubbing, allowing it to highlight more then accent, if that makes sense! Second Fav color is a "golden olive body with a lemon-yellow rib, with a ginger hackle!
Not quite traditional materials but it addresses the hatch! A great fly to fish along the bolder, rock bluff streams, fast water, the type of places that these little critters could get washed a drift.
FliTrap