Hung. Partridge Hackle Sizing
Moderators: William Anderson, letumgo
Hung. Partridge Hackle Sizing
Ok, so I've been asked to tie several partridge and (insert color here) most on size 16 wet fly hooks. I'm having a huge issue finding adequate hackles for this size. Am I the only one experiencing this?...am I missing hackles somewhere. We're talking about tying 50-100 flies easily. If I needed to tie a handful, that wouldn't be an issue. Should I be looking for a substitute hackle....say cdl hen neck or brahma hen neck?...others?
Re: Hung. Partridge Hackle Sizing
I would like to see John Shaner chime in on this question, as he is the most knowledgeable person I know when it comes to partridge and insert-color-here patterns. In the demo sessions of his that I have attended, he stresses that the prime feathers for this fly are the brown ones on the back ... not the smaller grey ones from the neck area. This, at least on the partridge skins I have, does present a quantity problem, as there are a limited number of these feathers that suit Size #16 hooks when tied in the usual way.
Some of the same morons who throw their trash around in National parks also vote. That alone would explain the state of American politics. ~ John Gierach, "Still Life with Brook Trout"
Re: Hung. Partridge Hackle Sizing
I use the brown back feathers for all (insert color here)and partridge hackles. I also use the very light ones around the neck area for green and yellow as well.
Vern-O,
I don't know how you tie the hackles in. I tie mine in as the first material, by the stem, with the tips out over the eye as described in the Art of Tying the Wet Fly by Leisenring. If you look at the back feathers, the hackle's length will be quite long then abruptly become shorter as it begins to round out the tip. At this point I strip the lower hackles off and tie in here. This leaves me with enough shorter hackles to make a wrap or two around the hook on the smaller flies. This also allows me to utilize the hackle stem tag to aid in forming a slight taper to the body. With the smaller flies I do not strip one side of the feather clean as this will weaken an already fragile feather tip and not give enough hackles of the right length make the wraps. With a little practice this works very well and makes a durable smaller fly. I really have no problems finding the right hackle lengths down to #18 and #20 with this method. Of course the quality of the partridge skin can help or hinder. 50-100, you may be looking at about 2-3 skins in my estimation.
Vern-O,
I don't know how you tie the hackles in. I tie mine in as the first material, by the stem, with the tips out over the eye as described in the Art of Tying the Wet Fly by Leisenring. If you look at the back feathers, the hackle's length will be quite long then abruptly become shorter as it begins to round out the tip. At this point I strip the lower hackles off and tie in here. This leaves me with enough shorter hackles to make a wrap or two around the hook on the smaller flies. This also allows me to utilize the hackle stem tag to aid in forming a slight taper to the body. With the smaller flies I do not strip one side of the feather clean as this will weaken an already fragile feather tip and not give enough hackles of the right length make the wraps. With a little practice this works very well and makes a durable smaller fly. I really have no problems finding the right hackle lengths down to #18 and #20 with this method. Of course the quality of the partridge skin can help or hinder. 50-100, you may be looking at about 2-3 skins in my estimation.
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Re: Hung. Partridge Hackle Sizing
maybe try brahma hen saddles.
Re: Hung. Partridge Hackle Sizing
Tie the larger hackle in with the barbs facing over the eye of the hook. Then pull the hackle back over the fly and secure. See Alan McGee's book for his way to do it.
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Re: Hung. Partridge Hackle Sizing
Guys,
Sorry I didn't see this discussion sooner to present a more timely reply as requested by Bill.
When I do classes or demos the most asked question is how does one find partridge hackle suitable for the smaller hook sizes. Well, the simplest answer is that you can't! After looking at many hundreds of partridge skins over the years I have only found a couple that would tie honest 16's. Even 14's can be an issue.
But the problem may lie more with our sense of fly proportion rather than the scarcity of the "proper" size hackles. We Americans seem to be bound to a hackle to hook proportion dictated by the Catskill School of dry flies; specifically, the hackle length should be 1 1/2 - 2 times the gape of the hook. This would, of course, be short for a spider hackle. On wet flies I've seen proportions stated as having the hackle reaching the point, barb, or bend of the hook, length of body, etc. I guess what I'm saying is that we tend to prefer a shorter hackle on our spiders, which suits our aesthetics.
The British seem to be much less dogmatic. The British flies I have examined, both antique and contemporary, show a broad range of hackle length in relation to hook size, but most is on the long side. Early flies (actual flies, not illustrations) I have seen are quite small, seldom larger than a modern 16 and often much smaller. The hackles on these flies often look out of proportion to modern eyes, but the old tiers were tying to a different set of proportions. Remember too that the hackle on spiders is meant to suggest WINGS and not LEGS! Indeed, many of the old patterns read something like; "winged with the hackle from a partridge back", or some such description.
My own flies are now more reflective of what I've seen represented by "original" spiders, i.e. longer hackle in proportion to hook size. I am very happy with this change as I too struggled for years trying to find those elusive little partridge hackles! I like the look of the flies and the fish don't seem to care at all!
(For a good discussion on hackle length, especially as it pertains to spiders, see Paul Schullery chapter on hackles in his book, "The Rise")
I feel strongly about using some of the suggested ways to shorten hackle such as Nemes, McGee, and Hughes show in their books and have never had very good luck using these techniques. You may get the hackle length you want but not the mobility of fiber that I feel is so important.
However, there is one way to shorten hackle that I DO like and which is also very traditional, and that is trimming the hackle to size! Oh, heresy of heresies! We were taught since childhood that a trimmed hackle is the mark of a poor tier or of poor materials. The early spider tiers were much more pragmatic when it came to this and trimmed feathers as needed. Such flies are illustrated in many of the 19th century books (see the illustrations in Bickerdyke) and I believe it was taken on faith that one would trim hackle as needed. I'm sure I can find a written description of the trimming hackles if I look for it.
I have in my collection many spiders dating to the 1880's with trimmed hackles and I would be happy to share photos if anyone is interested. As to fishing, the trimmed hackle spiders work just fine and I've found no difference in their effectiveness compared to non-trimmed hackles. They just look different to us!
Dressing a commercial quantity of small partridge hackled flies is another matter though. The customer will obviously be expecting that the flies are tied to pattern and trimming or using a substitute could be problematic. Using hen is certainly an option but now you have a "Brown Hen & ect." rather than a "Partridge & whatever". Again, I doubt if the would fish care but the customer might! If that's the case, one would just have to look through a lot of partridge skins for those elusive 16's!
Sorry I didn't see this discussion sooner to present a more timely reply as requested by Bill.
When I do classes or demos the most asked question is how does one find partridge hackle suitable for the smaller hook sizes. Well, the simplest answer is that you can't! After looking at many hundreds of partridge skins over the years I have only found a couple that would tie honest 16's. Even 14's can be an issue.
But the problem may lie more with our sense of fly proportion rather than the scarcity of the "proper" size hackles. We Americans seem to be bound to a hackle to hook proportion dictated by the Catskill School of dry flies; specifically, the hackle length should be 1 1/2 - 2 times the gape of the hook. This would, of course, be short for a spider hackle. On wet flies I've seen proportions stated as having the hackle reaching the point, barb, or bend of the hook, length of body, etc. I guess what I'm saying is that we tend to prefer a shorter hackle on our spiders, which suits our aesthetics.
The British seem to be much less dogmatic. The British flies I have examined, both antique and contemporary, show a broad range of hackle length in relation to hook size, but most is on the long side. Early flies (actual flies, not illustrations) I have seen are quite small, seldom larger than a modern 16 and often much smaller. The hackles on these flies often look out of proportion to modern eyes, but the old tiers were tying to a different set of proportions. Remember too that the hackle on spiders is meant to suggest WINGS and not LEGS! Indeed, many of the old patterns read something like; "winged with the hackle from a partridge back", or some such description.
My own flies are now more reflective of what I've seen represented by "original" spiders, i.e. longer hackle in proportion to hook size. I am very happy with this change as I too struggled for years trying to find those elusive little partridge hackles! I like the look of the flies and the fish don't seem to care at all!
(For a good discussion on hackle length, especially as it pertains to spiders, see Paul Schullery chapter on hackles in his book, "The Rise")
I feel strongly about using some of the suggested ways to shorten hackle such as Nemes, McGee, and Hughes show in their books and have never had very good luck using these techniques. You may get the hackle length you want but not the mobility of fiber that I feel is so important.
However, there is one way to shorten hackle that I DO like and which is also very traditional, and that is trimming the hackle to size! Oh, heresy of heresies! We were taught since childhood that a trimmed hackle is the mark of a poor tier or of poor materials. The early spider tiers were much more pragmatic when it came to this and trimmed feathers as needed. Such flies are illustrated in many of the 19th century books (see the illustrations in Bickerdyke) and I believe it was taken on faith that one would trim hackle as needed. I'm sure I can find a written description of the trimming hackles if I look for it.
I have in my collection many spiders dating to the 1880's with trimmed hackles and I would be happy to share photos if anyone is interested. As to fishing, the trimmed hackle spiders work just fine and I've found no difference in their effectiveness compared to non-trimmed hackles. They just look different to us!
Dressing a commercial quantity of small partridge hackled flies is another matter though. The customer will obviously be expecting that the flies are tied to pattern and trimming or using a substitute could be problematic. Using hen is certainly an option but now you have a "Brown Hen & ect." rather than a "Partridge & whatever". Again, I doubt if the would fish care but the customer might! If that's the case, one would just have to look through a lot of partridge skins for those elusive 16's!
Re: Hung. Partridge Hackle Sizing
Thank you, John.
Some of the same morons who throw their trash around in National parks also vote. That alone would explain the state of American politics. ~ John Gierach, "Still Life with Brook Trout"
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Re: Hung. Partridge Hackle Sizing
John, thanks so much for chiming on this. I appreciate your take on these flies and would love for you to share images illustrating your point. You've got quite a treasure of flies that defy what we typically think of when talking about the spiders. I'm afraid you're quite right however about the custom flies for a paying customer. Those trimmed hackles probably would not go over well. 
Thanks again for the information.
w
Thanks again for the information.
w
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Re: Hung. Partridge Hackle Sizing
John,
You showed us trimmed hackles in your slide show last June too. Personally, I am in favor of practicality, and seriously doubt that the trout would care at all. For Vern's assignment however, it probably is not an option.
Interesting that on Sunday in Danbury Mike Hogue was telling me that he has success with the method of folding back long hackles on the hook to achieve the required shortening for smaller sizes (as McGee illustrates clearly).
I have never tried it, and am not expert, as we all know, so I'm just passing on this information.
Vern-O, I hope you let us know how you solve this familiar problem.
Lance
You showed us trimmed hackles in your slide show last June too. Personally, I am in favor of practicality, and seriously doubt that the trout would care at all. For Vern's assignment however, it probably is not an option.
Interesting that on Sunday in Danbury Mike Hogue was telling me that he has success with the method of folding back long hackles on the hook to achieve the required shortening for smaller sizes (as McGee illustrates clearly).
I have never tried it, and am not expert, as we all know, so I'm just passing on this information.
Vern-O, I hope you let us know how you solve this familiar problem.
Lance
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DUBBN
Re: Hung. Partridge Hackle Sizing
I have to agree that the feathers do not have to be perfect to attract fish. I also realize that the feathers sometimes have to be perfect to catch a customer.
Here is a link which I am sure most people have seen. It is one of Charlie Cravens tutorials for using over size feathers. I practiced with it last Spring and have to admit the patterns turned out fair by most tyers standards, and great by mine.
http://www.charliesflyboxinc.com/flybox ... rentID=155
I am of the opinion that collars tyed with soft hackle mimic the body of the bug more than wings or legs. That being said, most of my patterns are tyed with a variety of hen hackle, shorter than the norm, and also a bit on the heavy (3 turns) side. It is just an uneducated opinion of mine. I dont have any proof to back it up.
Here is a link which I am sure most people have seen. It is one of Charlie Cravens tutorials for using over size feathers. I practiced with it last Spring and have to admit the patterns turned out fair by most tyers standards, and great by mine.
http://www.charliesflyboxinc.com/flybox ... rentID=155
I am of the opinion that collars tyed with soft hackle mimic the body of the bug more than wings or legs. That being said, most of my patterns are tyed with a variety of hen hackle, shorter than the norm, and also a bit on the heavy (3 turns) side. It is just an uneducated opinion of mine. I dont have any proof to back it up.