Who do you think

[narcodog]

Today I was going through Trout by Bergman and there is a section on dubbing. One of the methods he, Bergman, uses is rolling the material onto waxed silk across his knee as Leisuring does. So who do you think imitated whom?

[letumgo]

Found it! As soon as I read your post, I had to run to find my copy of Trout flies. In my copy (Second Edition / Printed in 2000), it is called out on pages 408 and 409, under the section describing how to tye a "Light Cahill - Dry". There was a lot of new material added into the second edition of Trout (Mr. Bergman indicates that there is roughly 25% more material in the second edition).

Question: Which edition do you have? If it is a first edition (1938), there is a chance that Mr. Leisenring learned the method from Mr. Bergman. If it is missing in the first edition, but contained in the second edition, it may be the other way around.

Crude Time Line:
First Edition of "Trout" was published in 1938 (Alfred A. Knopf publishing company)
Second Edition published in 1966
Mr. Bergman lived from 1891 to 1966.

First Edition of "The Art of Tying the Wet Fly" was published in 1941 (to be confirmed).
Note - The year (1941) is what is called out in my is from the fourth printing. I need to do some digging to confirm the date of the original printing.

Looking at the initial publishing dates, it is plausible that Mr. Leisenring learned the method from Mr. Bergman.

Great post Bob. I can't wait to hear what others can add to the discussion.

[narcodog]

My copy of Trout is 1952 which was the revised edition.
In my 1941 copy of Tying Wet Flies Big Jim is using the knee method.
That's where I found the reference, tying the Cahill.

[William Anderson]

I get using publication dates, but didn't Big Jim use this technique for 30 years before finally putting it to paper? Bergman too?

My impression was the spun body came from Halford.

Facts would be helpful. Sorry I'm coming up short in that dept.

w

[Old Hat]

Yes, publication dates have liitle value in answering this question. Many times credit has been wrongly attributed due to "first to publish" scenarios.

[narcodog]

William, you are correct. Big Jim fished and studied fishing for years. As has been discussed here if it hadn't been for Pete he never would have been published. So I think it really is an impossible question to answer. Both of these men fished the same waters, did they fish together, I have not seen anything that indicates they did.

[Jerry G]

Is it possible that back in the day this was simply one of the techniques used to apply dubbing to silk? Perhaps unique in that only a few put the technique into print. Sorry to say I'm not much of a historian.

Regards, Jerry

[Greenwell]

Rube Cross illustrates the exact technique in "Tying American Trout Lures" 1936. I'm sure he was using the technique prior to that date.

In a quick scan of Halford's books I can find no reference to the technique but I may have missed it. He also preferred non-absorbent body materials such as quill, raffia, horse hair, etc over fur for his dry flys. (Halford is a bit dry for me and he isn't nearly as much fun to research as Skues!)

[wsbailey]

Here is a picture of Halford's technique: http://archive.org/stream/floatingflies ... 2/mode/1up Bill

[Greenwell]

William, I have to correct myself, at least to a degree...
In "Floating Flies and how to Dress Them", Halford shows a technique that traps dubbing between a doubled waxed thread. However, he instructions are for making a fur hackle, as used on the Hare's Ear dry fly, rather than a dubbed fur body. Also, he doubles the thread around a dubbing needle stuck in a table top rather than rolling the thread on a pant leg. It's actually pretty close to using the dubbing block and may have provided some inspiration towards that development. One can only wonder........