Wire or Thread?

Moderators: William Anderson, letumgo

narcodog
Posts: 1224
Joined: Thu Feb 26, 2009 11:44 pm

Re: Wire or Thread?

Post by narcodog » Thu Aug 15, 2013 6:53 pm

I use waxed silk in a dubbing loop most of the time. Very seldom do I use wire for dubbing. I use wire to tye killer bugs.

For wax I have at least 15 different waxes. The one I grab the most often is Wonder Wax, no longer made.
"I like beer, do you like beer, I like beer a lot."
Mataura mayfly
Posts: 3648
Joined: Thu Oct 27, 2011 6:28 am
Location: Southland, South Island, New Zealand.

Re: Wire or Thread?

Post by Mataura mayfly » Thu Aug 15, 2013 7:27 pm

Welcome along WiFlyfisher.
I have this feeling you may have forgotten more about fly fishing and tying than I may hope to ever learn, but I will have a go at adding some of what I do/know to the mix. :D

Wire cored dubbing brushes seem to be somewhat of a recent forum "kick". There are pro's and con's in using wire, but most of us have twisted a lot more silk/thread bodies than wire (I hazard to guess). Wire cored bodies are a nice way of adding a little weight to a pattern without the use of a bead or lead wire under wraps- not a LOT of weight- but a bit and sometimes a little extra weight is all that is required.
In my way of thinking, block (or trouser leg) dubbing brushes use silk or wire not just as a material to hold the dubbing, but also as an important part of the body make-up. Both silk and wire allowed to "bleed" through the dubbing, lend their own properties to the body being formed. Silk gives that translucent glow that only wet silk can and wire adds some contrast or flash dependant on the type/gauge/colour of wire used.

You do not have to restrict yourself to silk or wire. I have made bodies cored with krystal flash, standard tying thread, sewing cotton, nylon fibres........ anything you can think of in a small diameter thread type material can be used. It all depends on what your finished aim is.

Waxes are many and varied, each have their own favourites. I prefer a paste wax used as a leather dressing! It can be a little messy if too much is added to the thread core, but I have it in bulk and it is easy to reach for. I also do not mind Wapsi dubbing waxes. As mentioned, Overtons Wonder Wax works well. I have not had much luck with hard block waxes, but that will be more of a technique on my behalf problem than fault of the waxes.
You just want a wax that will "set-up" and keep the thread from unfurling after you remove the pre-spun bodies from their holding card.
I dare say Jim S. could sort you in the right direction for appropriate waxes. ;)

Best of luck and be sure to share the results of your adventures.
"Listen to the sound of the river and you will get a trout".... Irish proverb.
User avatar
gingerdun
Posts: 1658
Joined: Mon Jan 09, 2012 10:00 pm
Location: Merrimac, Massachusetts

Re: Wire or Thread?

Post by gingerdun » Thu Aug 15, 2013 7:33 pm

John,
There is no best way for making dubbed bodies.
Split thread, knee, Clark block, touch-dub, etc. all are excellent.
Some of us try the different methods just out of curiosity, and because they were used by tiers we admire.
Leisenring never used the Clark block even though Dick Clark was a close friend and fishing partner. Why? Because Dick invented the spinning block after Jim Leisenring died.
Pete Hidy used the knee method for many years, and that is his knee and hands in the photographs in ATWF. After Dick Clark sent him a sample block to try, Pete was converted, and never went back to the knee technique. None of them knew about the split thread method, so who knows? They might have gone with that.
One thing that the Leisenring knee method and the Clark block have in common is that you have to use silk because synthetics don't hold the twist. They unravel when removed from the cards.

Some of us have experimented with wire just to see what happens. It is a way to add weight for bottom-dwelling nymphs, and can eliminate the need for a wire rib. Thread provides more color options, and can look more natural.
Don't use wire on the same block that you use for thread. The wire will enlarge the slits so that they are less capable of securing the slender thread.

Several forum members have experimented with making their own wax from Leisenring's recipe, which is based on Keene, but with different proportions. I haven't tried that yet.

William Anderson's website has good information about the Clark Spinning Block: http://www.williamsfavorite.com
Mataura mayfly
Posts: 3648
Joined: Thu Oct 27, 2011 6:28 am
Location: Southland, South Island, New Zealand.

Re: Wire or Thread?

Post by Mataura mayfly » Thu Aug 15, 2013 8:04 pm

John, "brushes" or "dubbing brushes" are just a term I (and some others) use to describe the finished spun fly bodies.
To me they look a little like the bore brushes one might use to clean rifle barrels.

Sorry to confuse the issue further. :oops:
"Listen to the sound of the river and you will get a trout".... Irish proverb.
User avatar
gingerdun
Posts: 1658
Joined: Mon Jan 09, 2012 10:00 pm
Location: Merrimac, Massachusetts

Re: Wire or Thread?

Post by gingerdun » Thu Aug 15, 2013 8:35 pm

WiFlyfisher wrote:BTW, I do have Jim. S.'s Keene special wax formula , which is hard, like rock candy, until you wet your fingers and rub it between your fingers.
John S.
John,
Jim Slattery told me that he is selling wax made to Leisenring's recipe, not Keene's. Leisenring did write in the book that he got the recipe from J. Harrington Keene, but when I looked up Keene's version the proportions were different from those Leisenring put in ATWF.

Here is what Leisenring wrote:
Melt one-half pound of the best white turpentine resin, add one ounce of pure white beeswax which should be pared off or chopped up into small pieces. Simmer for fifteen minutes, allowing it to melt and mix thoroughly with the resin. Now add one-half ounce of fresh lard and stir slowly while the mixture simmers just below the boiling point for another fifteen minutes.
The original wax recipe appeared in Keene’s Fly-Fishing and Fly-Making for Trout, Etc., (O. Judd Co., New York, 1887). Leisenring switched Keene’s proportions for the lard and wax. Keene used one ounce of lard, where Leisenring used only a half ounce. Keene used a half ounce of wax, to Leisenring’s one ounce. Others on the forum have said that the proportions of wax and lard can be adjusted to achieve different amounts of tack and pliability. The reason that Jim Slattery's wax is so hard may be that it contains less lard and more wax than the Keene recipe calls for. Presumably that is the way Leisenring liked it—unless he made a mistake when drafting the text for the wax chapter. I think Leisenring did make a mistake here—otherwise he wouldn't have stated so plainly that it is Keene's recipe. But others will surely disagree with my opinion.
User avatar
Ruard
Posts: 1904
Joined: Sun Feb 22, 2009 5:00 am
Location: Alkmaar
Contact:

Re: Wire or Thread?

Post by Ruard » Fri Aug 16, 2013 5:10 am

I use my dubbingblocks for spinning brushes with copper wire in different colours.

Here is a link to a post with the block I use for silk and wire:
http://www.flymphforum.com/viewtopic.ph ... bing+block

I like the use of wire because I have to catch fish down: Rudd and Roach take the flymph only if they are at the same depth as the Fish. They usually don't come up like trout.


greeting
There will allways be a solution.
http://www.aflyinholland.nl
User avatar
crazy4oldcars
Posts: 595
Joined: Fri May 22, 2009 5:26 pm
Location: SE Texas
Contact:

Re: Wire or Thread?

Post by crazy4oldcars » Fri Aug 16, 2013 9:15 am

John,
I used to use (lovely grammar, that lol) a dropped loop to apply dubbing until Hans introduced us to the split thread technique. Now I rarely use a dubbing loop. To me, the split-thread is fuzzier and creates a more translucent body. If I want a more compact body, I roll the dubbing onto the thread.

Kirk
User avatar
Ruard
Posts: 1904
Joined: Sun Feb 22, 2009 5:00 am
Location: Alkmaar
Contact:

Re: Wire or Thread?

Post by Ruard » Fri Aug 16, 2013 12:26 pm

WiFlyfisher wrote: I have never seen a demo on how to use the split thread method, but I heard about it on various forums. Sometimes it's a case of teaching old dogs new tricks. :)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xvq3UUDCO7k

Here is a link to a YOU tube video of Hans. The split thread is on about 4 minutes .

greeting
There will allways be a solution.
http://www.aflyinholland.nl
User avatar
cassady
Posts: 189
Joined: Sat Jul 28, 2012 10:10 pm

Re: Wire or Thread?

Post by cassady » Fri Aug 16, 2013 8:52 pm

I hope this isn't dragging things too off-topic, but since I was at a craft store today on an errand, I went looking for something I am pretty sure I read about somewhere on this forum: a sewing machine needle for splitting thread. I seem to recall reading that sewing machine needles have a flattened side of the needle that made them perfect for splitting thread... but I looked at about a half-dozen packs of sewing machine needles, and all were round (although there was a flattened area above the thread hole, and of course in the mount. None had a flattened side at the point.

Am I misremembering, or did they just not have the right needles?

Thanks,

chris
User avatar
redsedge
Posts: 169
Joined: Sat Apr 24, 2010 7:52 am
Location: Longmont

Re: Wire or Thread?

Post by redsedge » Fri Aug 16, 2013 9:01 pm

Nice one, Chris. Flat needle would be another tool I would have no problem adding to my clutter.
Post Reply