We all know that game birds such as partridge, grouse, woodcock, etc., and other birds such as the ubiquitous starling, provide us with hackles of just the right colors and markings such that we are able to tie flies that give the impression of real insects. The hackle barbs, compared to hen hackles, are wider and more substantial, and as we wind them around the hook shank we can't help but see how easily they begin to imitate legs, antennae, and wings of the natural.
With hen hackle, however, due to the fineness of the barbs, we can't get quite the same effect. Granted, some hackles like grizzly or Coq de Leon, have markings on them that give a more natural or lifelike appearance and complex coloration, versus a monochromatic brown or dun color for example. So what is the best way to approach tying wet flies with hen hackle in order to best give the impression of a natural insect, it's legs, wings, antennae and such, in its various stages of life? What should we be looking for when selecting hen capes in terms of color and marking? And what should we be considering when we wrap them as hackle, specifically, what thickness or thinness of hackling, is ideal? I realize some consideration should be given to the fishing conditions, smooth or broken water surface, for example, but in general, what is ideal, too little, too much? Again, the goal here is to best imitate the natural without overdoing it or underdoing it.
Just as an example, say you want to imitate emerging or drowned blue winged olives. What would your ideal choice of hackle be as far as it's color and markings, or lack thereof? And what are you focusing on when you wrap the hackle? Are you trying to give an impression of the wings, legs, or something else? I wonder if we were to approach tying flies in this more analytical way if we would end up with flies that look different from those we crank out easily just out of habit or by simply sticking to a proven pattern. Sylvester Nemes comes to mind. No one I know of was more focused, or obsessed, with soft hackled flies than he, and he was very analytical in his approach, creating patterns to imitate specific insects, even writing an entire book on tying flies to imitate spinners. Maybe I should just go reread his books! Anyway, I would like to begin a conversation about this if anyone else is interested.
Tom
Hen Hackles and their fishability
Moderators: William Anderson, letumgo
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Mataura mayfly
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Re: Hen Hackles and their fishability
Tom,
You raise some very interesting points- good subject matter for discussion and debate.
I must admit to not using a lot of commercial Hen hackle, therein may be an answer to some of your questions. Some Hen capes are of a very high quality- near dry fly Cockerel quality and as such, the barbs are quite stiff and will actually support the weight of a fly on the barbs. Most Hen capes I can find for sale commercially here are not of that quality, are often quite greasy and matted, or have feathers more suited to streamer hackle of Matuku style wings, rather than small soft hackles.
True Greenwell hackles (as you know) have a wonderful colouration and are a most useful Hen hackle, as can be the various Grizzle shades from very pale Dun through to a darkish Honey/Ginger. Furnace and badger also have their place. These few would always be mentioned- and if you were lucky- shown in colour plates of the older British fly dressing volumes.
Possibly more important (dare I say most) to the wee wet World are the Dun hackles in all its wonderful variations, but Red also gets heavily "mentioned in dispatches", as do various shades of Ginger.
My own opinion is that the high grade/stiffer Hen hackles have a place. In presentation as a semi/dry in the film or upstream and in lively water where perhaps softer barbs of lower grade hen hackle and gamebird hackle would perhaps be more prone to collapse against the body and not give the illusion of legs/wings.
Myself, I prefer self harvested/gathered farmyard hackles. For me they are cleaner and more suited in size than ones I can find in stores here (there is not a great demand for Hen capes here). They are often softer than store bought hackle and the webby element often extends further up the stem. Often there are barbs with a somewhat webby base and a stiffer/thinner top section.
You mention Mr Nemes and his obsessions, I think in the era he was to the fore, the Hen hackle of the day would be closer to farmyard of today rather than genetic higher grade Hen hackles from well known cape suppliers.
You raise some very interesting points- good subject matter for discussion and debate.
I must admit to not using a lot of commercial Hen hackle, therein may be an answer to some of your questions. Some Hen capes are of a very high quality- near dry fly Cockerel quality and as such, the barbs are quite stiff and will actually support the weight of a fly on the barbs. Most Hen capes I can find for sale commercially here are not of that quality, are often quite greasy and matted, or have feathers more suited to streamer hackle of Matuku style wings, rather than small soft hackles.
True Greenwell hackles (as you know) have a wonderful colouration and are a most useful Hen hackle, as can be the various Grizzle shades from very pale Dun through to a darkish Honey/Ginger. Furnace and badger also have their place. These few would always be mentioned- and if you were lucky- shown in colour plates of the older British fly dressing volumes.
Possibly more important (dare I say most) to the wee wet World are the Dun hackles in all its wonderful variations, but Red also gets heavily "mentioned in dispatches", as do various shades of Ginger.
My own opinion is that the high grade/stiffer Hen hackles have a place. In presentation as a semi/dry in the film or upstream and in lively water where perhaps softer barbs of lower grade hen hackle and gamebird hackle would perhaps be more prone to collapse against the body and not give the illusion of legs/wings.
Myself, I prefer self harvested/gathered farmyard hackles. For me they are cleaner and more suited in size than ones I can find in stores here (there is not a great demand for Hen capes here). They are often softer than store bought hackle and the webby element often extends further up the stem. Often there are barbs with a somewhat webby base and a stiffer/thinner top section.
You mention Mr Nemes and his obsessions, I think in the era he was to the fore, the Hen hackle of the day would be closer to farmyard of today rather than genetic higher grade Hen hackles from well known cape suppliers.
"Listen to the sound of the river and you will get a trout".... Irish proverb.
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DUBBN
Re: Hen Hackles and their fishability
Yes, partridge, grouse, woodcock, etc. do provide us with hackle of just the "right" color. To we humans, the barbs imitate legs, antennae, and wings. I wonder if the fish actually see the hackle as these appendages. I am not a trout, so I can not speak for the resident Browns and Rainbows..
I have seen pictures of soft hackle patterns submerged in water. To me, while the pattern is submerged, it does not really look that different than when it is out of water and dry. When it has been thoroughly soaked, then brought out of the water, it looks very,,,,,,, grub like. For me, neither scenario gives a proper replication of what the soft hackle looks like. It is my opinion that the hen hackle collapses around the body of the fly, and takes on the primary color of the pattern. In other words, if the fish are taking brown nymphs, then a brown hackle should be used. If the trout are taking a nymph or emerger with a gray body then a Dun hackle should be used.
My father loved trolling flies from his boat. I remember him reeling in his line and me watching his flies go past me from the seat of his boat. His wet flies always looked like little tear drops as they went by. The hen/rooster hackle had collapsed around the pattern, and taken on the primary color of the fly. The body of the fly be it muskrat, peacock or what ever had been relegated to just an accent. I noticed this same phenomena while netting a few fish for my gran daughter while she was using a fly and bubble. As a side note, I believe this is why over hackled flies can be so effective.
I make the mistake of experimenting with fly patterns. Even though most members of this forum believe experimenting is hog wash, I continue to test patterns. There is only one pattern out of all the soft hackles/flymphs I have tried that produces better for me with partridge than hen, and that is the peacock and partridge. Any other pattern (for me) works best with hen. That includes partridge and orange, pheasant, green, etc.. I do best with hen.
I am not bothered by genetic, India, or barn raised hen. The fish I go after show no preference for one over the other. For that matter, I have used india rooster on my flymphs and the fish eat them as well. I have not fine tuned my fishing techniques well enough to be able to split the hairs between domestic and genetic hen. My poor tying techniques can make both varieties collapse around the body of the fly. Cheap rooster collapses for me with equal zeal.
I do not post here much of late. There is a small amount of members who actually care what I have to say. The majority could care less. Hen hackle is dear to me, and I felt the need to weigh in on it.
Being of less than average IQ, and with out scientific data or research, I submit my comments as opinion, and not fact.
I use the patterns that I use to post here.
I have seen pictures of soft hackle patterns submerged in water. To me, while the pattern is submerged, it does not really look that different than when it is out of water and dry. When it has been thoroughly soaked, then brought out of the water, it looks very,,,,,,, grub like. For me, neither scenario gives a proper replication of what the soft hackle looks like. It is my opinion that the hen hackle collapses around the body of the fly, and takes on the primary color of the pattern. In other words, if the fish are taking brown nymphs, then a brown hackle should be used. If the trout are taking a nymph or emerger with a gray body then a Dun hackle should be used.
My father loved trolling flies from his boat. I remember him reeling in his line and me watching his flies go past me from the seat of his boat. His wet flies always looked like little tear drops as they went by. The hen/rooster hackle had collapsed around the pattern, and taken on the primary color of the fly. The body of the fly be it muskrat, peacock or what ever had been relegated to just an accent. I noticed this same phenomena while netting a few fish for my gran daughter while she was using a fly and bubble. As a side note, I believe this is why over hackled flies can be so effective.
I make the mistake of experimenting with fly patterns. Even though most members of this forum believe experimenting is hog wash, I continue to test patterns. There is only one pattern out of all the soft hackles/flymphs I have tried that produces better for me with partridge than hen, and that is the peacock and partridge. Any other pattern (for me) works best with hen. That includes partridge and orange, pheasant, green, etc.. I do best with hen.
I am not bothered by genetic, India, or barn raised hen. The fish I go after show no preference for one over the other. For that matter, I have used india rooster on my flymphs and the fish eat them as well. I have not fine tuned my fishing techniques well enough to be able to split the hairs between domestic and genetic hen. My poor tying techniques can make both varieties collapse around the body of the fly. Cheap rooster collapses for me with equal zeal.
I do not post here much of late. There is a small amount of members who actually care what I have to say. The majority could care less. Hen hackle is dear to me, and I felt the need to weigh in on it.
Being of less than average IQ, and with out scientific data or research, I submit my comments as opinion, and not fact.
I use the patterns that I use to post here.
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hankaye
- Posts: 6582
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- Location: Arrey, N.M. aka 32°52'37.63"N, 107°18'54.18"W
Re: Hen Hackles and their fishability
Howdy All;
Just my small drop into the bucket. Three folks who I respect and their opinions as well
have given voice to a question that will take forever to answer, is there really an answer???
I'm inclined to like the thoughts about the non-generic hens as I'm thinking they weren't
available to the tyers that we as mere mortals attempt to emulate. Mostly all that was available
were barnyard birds that were awaiting their turn in the hot grease or the roaster. As our countries
became more urbanized the availability of backyard birds became scarcer. Enter the feather merchants.
Sylvester Nemes was a transitional tyer, he started with the backyard birds and finished when genetic was
the norm. I don't have any of his books so I can't say what he might have said about the differences or what
his thoughts may have been on the subject. Anyone care to share? We have been blessed with the quality of
materials and ability to get our hands on them (except perhaps in Southern NZ ).
I've only fished with flies for a short time and really don't have enough information to form an opinion.
I've noticed, in the photos that have made their way onto the forum that the hackled flies all look like a tear drop
when wet yet out of the water. I've had occasion to watch one or two of my own when they were near enough to see
and I liked the way the hackle moved (pulsed), when motivated. I could 'see' how the pulsing would be a positive enticement
to a fish, be it a trout, panfish or whatever.
Leisenring devoted a whole Chapter (5), to hackles and others give the subject a fair amount of attention as well.
We are only starting to scratch the surface with this conversation. Eager to hear more.
hank
PS. Wayne, nice finger ..... hope it is appropriate ... the fly is a cutie .
Just my small drop into the bucket. Three folks who I respect and their opinions as well
have given voice to a question that will take forever to answer, is there really an answer???
I'm inclined to like the thoughts about the non-generic hens as I'm thinking they weren't
available to the tyers that we as mere mortals attempt to emulate. Mostly all that was available
were barnyard birds that were awaiting their turn in the hot grease or the roaster. As our countries
became more urbanized the availability of backyard birds became scarcer. Enter the feather merchants.
Sylvester Nemes was a transitional tyer, he started with the backyard birds and finished when genetic was
the norm. I don't have any of his books so I can't say what he might have said about the differences or what
his thoughts may have been on the subject. Anyone care to share? We have been blessed with the quality of
materials and ability to get our hands on them (except perhaps in Southern NZ
). I've only fished with flies for a short time and really don't have enough information to form an opinion.
I've noticed, in the photos that have made their way onto the forum that the hackled flies all look like a tear drop
when wet yet out of the water. I've had occasion to watch one or two of my own when they were near enough to see
and I liked the way the hackle moved (pulsed), when motivated. I could 'see' how the pulsing would be a positive enticement
to a fish, be it a trout, panfish or whatever.
Leisenring devoted a whole Chapter (5), to hackles and others give the subject a fair amount of attention as well.
We are only starting to scratch the surface with this conversation. Eager to hear more.
hank
PS. Wayne, nice finger ..... hope it is appropriate ... the fly is a cutie
.Striving for a less complicated life since 1949...
"Every day I beat my own previous record for number
of consecutive days I've stayed alive." George Carlin
"Every day I beat my own previous record for number
of consecutive days I've stayed alive." George Carlin
Re: Hen Hackles and their fishability
I really like Hebert Miner. I like the colors on the Hebert Miner especially. Regular Whiting Hen is good too. I have a Metz hen or two. I have one or two Collins hens, and I really like it. I also have a couple of little bags with some regular genetic hen. Someone gave me that genetic hen to try. I go for hen that looks good, and turns good. I don't like twisty hackle. I have two or three India rooster that are pretty good too. The India hen is something I do like on the look, and feel. But they don't have many color varieties in the natual. I wish the genetic hens could maintain the softness of the older hens. If I wanted stiffer barbs, I could get a lower grade dry fly cape. For regular soft hackles, I much prefer natural colors, over dyed colors. For wet flies and stuff, you have to have the dyed colors though. I don't know if fish mistake hackle for legs, or antennae, or whatever. They might, and they might not. It may be the movement that see, that gives them a hint of either, or neither. (hackle)
I don't imagine my knowledge of hens is very helpful. But I didn't want the thread to die, so I put in my two cents worth.
I don't imagine my knowledge of hens is very helpful. But I didn't want the thread to die, so I put in my two cents worth.
Re: Hen Hackles and their fishability
Izaac, to answer your first question, perhaps there is no empirical "ideal", but rather what may be ideal for a particular application on a particular pattern, serving to create the effect you're after. The barbs of hen hackles, in general, tend to have thinner, stiffer barbs than game & wild birds. I have no problem using them, but hen is an item I prefer to hand select rather than order from a catalog, though there are some, like the Hebert Miner, that are reliably good. I look for hen hackle with soft, fat barbs & rounded feathers. Welsummer, an old breed from Holland, provide excellent soft-hackle capes, like brown partridge over the back morphing to browns & gingers down the sides, & the neck feathers sporting mottled brown centers with yellow/gold tips. I like the thinner barbs of hen for simulating the tiny thin legs of smaller mayflies, nymphs & adults, in which case I might just use one turn of hen hackle, stripped on one side, like for BWO's. If I'm using hen on a sedge emerger, wanting to simulate a combination of emerging wings, legs, antenna, I'll apply one turn of an unstripped hackle for a bit heavier collar.
My perspective on your last question: I think the hackle on on a soft-hackle BWO pattern simulates legs/wings/antenna/movement/obfuscation, altogether.
My perspective on your last question: I think the hackle on on a soft-hackle BWO pattern simulates legs/wings/antenna/movement/obfuscation, altogether.
Re: Hen Hackles and their fishability
Good points UC Steve. I to prefer hen for much smaller patters as it is easier to mimic the right proportion. Personally I think the biggest difference in decision lies not so much in the color but the purpose of the fly in connection with the intended presentation. I prefer hen for flies that I intend to fish in the surface, upstream as a final stage emerger or drowned dun. The hen gives me a bit more float ability and I feel better mimics the emergent wing. A mid column emerging insect is often swimming or struggling to the surface. A better place to employ a fly with the very soft gamebird hackle that mimics legs and body movement and allow the fly to sink inititially quicker. Often at this stage the wings have not emerged completly yet and a darker swollen thorax can be a better place to show this. This attribute should also be efficient enough to mimic the already emerged wings of an emerging caddis.
I am not saying color is not important. It should always be imitated to the best ability for the particular hatch. But color scheme can be mimicked elsewhere in the pattern. Not necessarily having to be in the hackle.
UC Steve - a hearty welcome. Great post to start off with.
I am not saying color is not important. It should always be imitated to the best ability for the particular hatch. But color scheme can be mimicked elsewhere in the pattern. Not necessarily having to be in the hackle.
UC Steve - a hearty welcome. Great post to start off with.
I hate it when I think I'm buying organic vegetables, and when I get home I discover they are just regular donuts.
http://www.oldhatflytying.com
http://www.oldhatflytying.com
Re: Hen Hackles and their fishability
UC Steve,
Welcome! Thank you very much for your input and perspective. Your approach is well thought out and gives me a lot to think about. Any chance we could see some photos of your flies? The Welsummer partridge you describe sounds beautiful. Again, welcome to the forum!
Old Hat, and others who have posted,
Thanks for your thoughts about this. It is just the sort of conversation I was wanting! Good stuff!
Tom
Welcome! Thank you very much for your input and perspective. Your approach is well thought out and gives me a lot to think about. Any chance we could see some photos of your flies? The Welsummer partridge you describe sounds beautiful. Again, welcome to the forum!
Old Hat, and others who have posted,
Thanks for your thoughts about this. It is just the sort of conversation I was wanting! Good stuff!
Tom
Re: Hen Hackles and their fishability
Thank you for the the kind welcome, guys.
I agree, Mr. Hat.
Izaak, you can google 'photos of welsummer chickens' & find pics of them. They're not uncommon, & I've found them on craigslist on two occasions. Of course you have to skin them yourself. The 'muddler' head of the flatwing sculpin is made from wound pheasant rump with three heavy welsummer hackles wound in front of it. The entry currently riding the top of the page at Soft~Hackle Journal holds photos of a lesser green drake & a mahogany dun tied with welsummer hen, the drake, with the gold-tipped neck hackle, & the MD with a ginger hackle taken from the same cape.
I agree, Mr. Hat.
Izaak, you can google 'photos of welsummer chickens' & find pics of them. They're not uncommon, & I've found them on craigslist on two occasions. Of course you have to skin them yourself. The 'muddler' head of the flatwing sculpin is made from wound pheasant rump with three heavy welsummer hackles wound in front of it. The entry currently riding the top of the page at Soft~Hackle Journal holds photos of a lesser green drake & a mahogany dun tied with welsummer hen, the drake, with the gold-tipped neck hackle, & the MD with a ginger hackle taken from the same cape.
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DUBBN
Re: Hen Hackles and their fishability
I have never thought of hen as adding the least bit of flotability. I still dont. Flotability , and wet fly do not roll off my tongue very easily when I try to say it out loud. By greasing the leader, and sometimes the flymph it self I have been able to keep a wet fly in the surface film, be it partridge or hen. My choice of what hackle to use has never been determined by a wet flies floatability. 95% of my fishing is with in 1 foot of the bottom. Perhaps that is why I could not wrap my mind around a soft hackles floatability.
There are rare instances that I know color is the primary trigger for a pattern. That being said, if I am right, and the hen hackle collapses around my patterns, then the color of the hackle becomes the primary color of the pattern. I am not saying the color is what makes the trout strike either, but we sure do use a lot of different colored hackles for color not to be of very high importance. As that hen hackle wraps around the body, enveloping the pattern, it is not only dominating the color scheme, it is undulating, shimmering, and contorting with every change in the current and drift.
One last opinion. As hen gets discussed in other places other than this forum, and here, I keep hearing that genetic hen like Whitings can be used for dry's. I suppose with enough floatant you can suspend a brick in the water column. For me, Whiting hen capes are still a great value. Even if they reach 30.00 U.S. per cape. In the past 15 or more years I have gone through maybe 20 of them, and each and every one has been soft and supple. If I were to try and pass any of them off as dry fly capes, I would have been the laughing stock of the village. For me, hen is the nearest to perfect soft hackle material I know of, and does a bang up job imitating legs, wings, antennae or any other appendage a bug might have. Hen is extremely versatile whether it be India, barn yard, or Whiting genetic.
These are only opinions that I have formed from casual observation. I have no proof that any of my opinions could be factual.
There are rare instances that I know color is the primary trigger for a pattern. That being said, if I am right, and the hen hackle collapses around my patterns, then the color of the hackle becomes the primary color of the pattern. I am not saying the color is what makes the trout strike either, but we sure do use a lot of different colored hackles for color not to be of very high importance. As that hen hackle wraps around the body, enveloping the pattern, it is not only dominating the color scheme, it is undulating, shimmering, and contorting with every change in the current and drift.
One last opinion. As hen gets discussed in other places other than this forum, and here, I keep hearing that genetic hen like Whitings can be used for dry's. I suppose with enough floatant you can suspend a brick in the water column. For me, Whiting hen capes are still a great value. Even if they reach 30.00 U.S. per cape. In the past 15 or more years I have gone through maybe 20 of them, and each and every one has been soft and supple. If I were to try and pass any of them off as dry fly capes, I would have been the laughing stock of the village. For me, hen is the nearest to perfect soft hackle material I know of, and does a bang up job imitating legs, wings, antennae or any other appendage a bug might have. Hen is extremely versatile whether it be India, barn yard, or Whiting genetic.
These are only opinions that I have formed from casual observation. I have no proof that any of my opinions could be factual.