Harelug and Plover - SBS

[tie2fish]

It certainly is nice! This well done tutorial has convinced me that I must absolutely obtain a golden plover skin.

[GlassJet]

Roy, that is very, very cool

I would fish that much more confidently than I would the traditional collar hackle, much more.

A question: If you find that hackle so effective, how does that square with the move towards sparser collar hackles? And a sub-question(!) is this move towards sparser collar hackles a fashion based on human foible, or a refinement due to human experience of catching fish?

andrew

[chase creek]

Lovely. I really like that method of winding the hackle.
Thanks for posting.

[Otter]

Roy, that is very, very cool

I would fish that much more confidently than I would the traditional collar hackle, much more.

A question: If you find that hackle so effective, how does that square with the move towards sparser collar hackles? And a sub-question(!) is this move towards sparser collar hackles a fashion based on human foible, or a refinement due to human experience of catching fish?

andrew

I would imagine that its the normal horses for courses and very much open to opinion , and not being the shy type here's my theory or suspicions.

For highly imitative Patterns.
Stewarts Style would be at its most effective on faster water.
For spiders on slow to medium paced water - less hackle is probably best.
Then again varying degrees of hackle may be preferable for various stages of the hatch.

Until I get fishing these buggers its all theory and I may well be talking out my ....

[GlassJet]

Hi Otter,
The only spider I have done consistently well with is a little William's favourite tied on a dropper. But then again, such things can be self-reinforcing - I got confident in the fly after a few catches, then whenever I decided to fish a spider on a dropper, I reached for the WF! Who is to say other patterns might not have worked just as well if not better? This year i will test!

I said i would fish the palmered with more confidence, because towards the end of last season, I was having a play around with a pattern that was essentially a hen hackle palmered over ostrich herl. It looked nothing, was completely artless, but it was absolutely lethal on grayling when willow fly were on the water!

I think actually I had invented the Derbyshire Bumble - or something very similar... you heard it here first!

Andrew

[Roy]

how does that square with the move towards sparser collar hackles? And a sub-question(!) is this move towards sparser collar hackles a fashion based on human foible, or a refinement due to human experience of catching fish?

andrew

Thanks, all,

Andrew,

For me it came about as a result of studying Stewart and using his spiders.
Stewart spiders are very mobile and last for a very long time before disintegrating.
The mobility is, I think, due to the space between the fibres, thus 4-5 turns, semi-palmered is less dense than four turns at the collar which clogs the appearance and action of the fibres. Thus I'd say these are sparse, whereas if the same turns were wrapped at the head it would be dense.
Other folks may have come to the same end via different routes;
or even arrived somewhere else, all good.

All I need on my spiders is seven 'legs'; starting with 100 allows the fly to be extremely durable.
Spacing the hackle, palmer style, allows action in the water from the first cast to the last; no waiting for it to get roughed up/thinned down into fishing mode.

In my case, the refinements are due to the tastes of my fish.
Their preference dictates a style where the hackle is no longer than to reach the hook bend, this turns knocks into hookups, especially on the downstream swing and hang...
also shorter springy outer covert fibres are preferred (by my fish) over softer fibres as they have greater action and durability. I think that is why these attract more takes than a densely hackled fly made of softer stuff.
The body of these semi palmered flies is equally visible/obvious to the fish, more action is imparted via virtually the same amount of material - than if wrapped as a collar.

Someone, somewhere in a magazine, years ago hypothesised that the best nymph he had was double hackled; one hackle at the head, one halfway down the shank.
I believe him, did not convert to that system though; this one is faster, cheaper and simpler, and little different in use.
Teeny nymphs and Irish Shrimp flies for salmon are similar in construction.
I reckon he had no Stewart spiders in that box.

What do fish see in this style?
I reckon they see something which appears to have action from within (liveliness)
something which charicatures the natural (size,colour)
if we move it something trying to escape (action)

Our prey has amazing eyesight. Perhaps the veiling of the body makes our crude imitation attractive due to shimmering light effects.
I would place my use of this style as refinement due to human experience of catching fish

Whatever it is, it works well.

Minimalism turns it into this

which is a low water parody.

I got interrupted while responding, by a telephone call from an expert friend, Charlie Davidson, whose very essence is north country flies.
Design - body, from eye to a point opposite the barb, one turn of soft hackle, whip finish - anything else is not true to form; just came up in general conversation
mine are all variants, two turns too short of body.


and had time to think...
we now need low water flies as there is generally much less water in our rivers here, due to excess drainage and abstraction, we are fishing smaller rivers nowadays.
enough Roy,


AND meanwhile Otter posted >>>

Stewarts Style would be at its most effective on faster water.
For spiders on slow to medium paced water - less hackle is probably best.
Then again varying degrees of hackle may be preferable for various stages of the hatch.

Stewart spiders are effective in any water, IMHO, however
in slow/medium water I'd agree, less is better.
Sometimes less is a TINY Stewart spider for the smuts#22 - 26
rather than a less dense fly - as you allude ref: stages of hatch and matching same
All good stuff

Thanks
Roy

[Ruard]

Hi Roy,

David Westwood calls this the Tummelstyle:

""Why are they so short in the body? The basic reason for the shortness and lightness of the body of Tummel fly is quite simple: to allow the hook to weigh the fly that is tied on it, so allowing the fly to sink rapidly to a fishing depth as soon as it touches the water. Tummel flies are designed to get down to the trout in the most natural way ‑ under their own steam; Clyde flies are fractionally slower in achieving an effective fishing depth. The small amount of dressing makes the job of the fly even easier, in that although a back cast dries the fly in the air, it gets wet again as soon as it touches the water, removing the tendency of a more heavily dressed fly to sink slowly to the proper depth. ""

See also my site/spiders/david westwood/article 3

Greeting

[Old Hat]

Beautifully tied Roy and the tutuorial is a bonus.

I just thought I would mention, only as an addition, that I believe Stewart, after winding the hackle with the thread back, tied off the hackle at that point and not at the head of the fly. Someone correct me if I am wrong. Many may know this but to those that don't...a little tidbit.

[Roy]

Hi, Ruard,
it fits the category, visually, almost, but it is not a real Tummel fly.
it could not aspire to that classic status.
The end product is similar but this one arrived on a different bus.

A Tummel fly is built to be cast into the maelstrom, sink, twitch, swing, twitch, hang, recast

This one is - cast upstream in slack water, twitch, wait, twitch, wait, drift, twitch, wait
I would not trust this one to achieve the required depth for a really fast flow.

I would hackle a Tummel fly even softer with grouse and use a bigger hook relative to hackle size, probably a heavier, longer hook too; and fine tippet.
Tummel flies may be short of body but they are relatively substantial of hook.

Just me.

Roy

OldHat, you posted as I was writing,
Of course I am tying the fly from a totally different angle, I cheat by using a rotary vise where Stewart eg. had none.
One way to finish the fly is to tie off behind the hackle.
That is what I read in Stewart's instructions, as you say.

I am told by traditionalists that these spiders should be started at the eye with the silk, wrapped to the bend, tie in the hackle by the point, spiral the hackle with the waxed silk, wind forward to the eye, separate the hackle butt from the silk and whip finish.
Makes a lovely fly. Not in accordance with Stewart, though, those young chaps knew better

Me- rock on the left, hard place to my right,
I use neither, being a modernist

[willowhead]

WOW! another phenominal thread i "had" missed................thankx to everyone.........specially you Roy, hi & hugs to Jewels. When are you commin' over to do the Sowbug??????????????