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Re: Timeless fly tying advice

Posted: Sat Dec 01, 2018 4:24 pm
by PhilA
Greenwell wrote:
Fri Nov 30, 2018 10:18 pm
Phil, I hope that you didn't think that I was implying that Skues was/is the only good source of angling advice; nothing could be further from the truth.
Greenwell John,
My comment about Skues not being the only source of good information was in response to WiFlyfisher John's earlier comment. He knows that I'm a big fan of Datus Proper and was coaxing me to mention What the Trout Said.

To your list of "Hall of Fame" authors, I'll add a few more whose names haven't come up yet. These are authors who, in my opinion, contributed important, new, all-original insights into fly fishing and tying that have withstood the test of time. Authors of our combined lists are designers and producers of new ideas and methods; most authors are retailers. I'm sure there are more, but these additional authors would certainly be in my Hall of Fame:
  • W.C. Stewart
    F.M. Halford
    E.W. Harding
    Thaddeus Norris
    Ed Hewitt
    Polly Rosborough
    Fran Betters
    Leonard Wright
    John Atherton
Concerning Datus Proper, the photo below *understates* my respect and admiration for What the Trout Said. Check out the neighbors ... fly fishing royalty!

Image

Proper was a career diplomat for the Foreign Service, but he was a scientist at heart. Proper's approach to understanding the principles of fly design was to systematically vary the design features of a fly one-by-one, and compare the effectiveness of two flies that differ by only one variable. It is the scientific method in its purest and most successful form. Trout provided the data, and Proper interpreted the results. Hence, the title of the book.

I drove the full length of Hyalite Creek a few years ago, imagining Proper at each pool testing the latest hypothesis. That was his laboratory and the location of his tragic death 15 years ago after slipping, falling and drowning in a few inches inches of water.

Re: Timeless fly tying advice

Posted: Sat Dec 01, 2018 4:34 pm
by PhilA
WiFlyfisher wrote:
Fri Nov 30, 2018 8:52 pm
I sent my copy to Eric to read last Spring. When I get it back I will read it again sometime.

WiFlyfisher John,
Tell Eric he can keep the Datus Proper book. He will certainly appreciate it. Then, come to the Badger Show, and I'll replace it with one of mine!

Phil

Re: Timeless fly tying advice

Posted: Sat Dec 01, 2018 4:51 pm
by ForumGhillie
Wow! Phil, I think you have more copies of Proper's book than I have Whiting Coachman Brown rooster capes. :D

I see Skues' book "Side-lines Side-lights & Reflections" on your book shelf. I just called and chatted with Eric to see how he was doing. I mentioned to him about the forum and the discussions. He recommened that I would really enjoy reading "Side-lines Side-lights & Reflections".

Ironic to see it in your photo.
WiFlyfisher John,
Tell Eric he can keep the Datus Proper book. He will certainly appreciate it. Then, come to the Badger Show, and I'll replace it with one of mine!
Phil, Thank you, but I would pay you for it!! Wire too?

John

Re: Timeless fly tying advice

Posted: Sat Dec 01, 2018 8:42 pm
by PhilA
WiFlyfisher wrote:
Sat Dec 01, 2018 4:51 pm
I think you have more copies of Proper's book than I have Whiting Coachman Brown rooster capes.
That's not possible. The only person with more Coachman Brown capes than you was Mr. Tom Bosworth, the former royal carriage driver. (Google it if puzzled)


WiFlyfisher wrote:
Sat Dec 01, 2018 4:51 pm
Thank you, but I would pay you for it!!
John
No, I don't think so Mr. Webmaster. You've earned it. --Phil

Re: Timeless fly tying advice

Posted: Sun Dec 02, 2018 8:08 am
by ForumGhillie
PhilA wrote:
Sat Dec 01, 2018 8:42 pm
WiFlyfisher wrote:
Sat Dec 01, 2018 4:51 pm
I think you have more copies of Proper's book than I have Whiting Coachman Brown rooster capes.
That's not possible. The only person with more Coachman Brown capes than you was Mr. Tom Bosworth, the former royal carriage driver. (Google it if puzzled)

WiFlyfisher wrote:
Sat Dec 01, 2018 4:51 pm
Thank you, but I would pay you for it!!
John
No, I don't think so Mr. Webmaster. You've earned it. --Phil
Thank you , Phil for your gracious offer.

(Royal Coachman / family of Royal fly patterns has a wonderful history all the way up to the Cross' Quack Royal. I always have some Royal Trudes on me, it has saved many a summer outing out West.)

Re: Timeless fly tying advice

Posted: Sun Dec 02, 2018 11:00 am
by Greenwell
Phil,

I'll agree with most of the names on your list of additions, particularly Harding who was so far ahead of his time. He died before he could finish his second book which Skues found particularly tragic.

Most of what Marinaro published was foresaged by Harding many years earlier. (It's interesting that in Brian Clarke's and John Goddard's The Trout and the Fly Harding is mentioned once and Marinaro is mentioned twice and then only very briefly. Most of their book borrows heavily from the two earlier authors but gives them essentially no recognition. Harding was of course long gone but a friend of mine who knew Vince very closely said that he never got over the snub.)

OK, Ok, I have the same number of copies of Proper! But I do have the very rare English printing and the Easton Press Edition! LOL! Crazy book people..............

Re: Timeless fly tying advice

Posted: Sun Dec 02, 2018 12:51 pm
by upstatetrout
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I have to agree What the Trout Said is a must have.If I travel(fishing) the book is always in my trailer. Mine is a cherished copy as it was given by Datus to my friend Catskill Bill Kelly who in turn passed it on to me before his departure.

Tom

Re: Timeless fly tying advice

Posted: Sun Dec 02, 2018 5:23 pm
by PhilA
WiFlyfisher wrote:
Sun Dec 02, 2018 8:08 am
(Royal Coachman / family of Royal fly patterns has a wonderful history all the way up to the Cross' Quack Royal. I always have some Royal Trudes on me, it has saved many a summer outing out West.)
WiFlyfisher John,
A chapter of Paul Schullery's book Royal Coachman is devoted to the history of the Royal Coachman. Tom Bosworth, carriage driver for English Kings and Queens, is credited with designing the Coachman wet fly in the early 1800s, but the Royal Coachman was the brainchild of Mr. John Haily of New York City in about 1878. Haily was a professional fly tyer who tied flies for the Charles F. Orvis Company. Charles' brother L.C. Orvis suggested the snappy name "Royal Coachman". Schullery describes the Royal Coachman as "the first great American fly pattern". Thus, I believe the Royal lineage -- or at least the "Royal" name -- began with Haily and Orvis.

Datus Proper points out that the only difference between a Royal Coachman and an ant pattern contained in Aldam's A Quaint Treatise in 1876 is the color of the wing!

Greenwell John, is this true? You are the only source I know of with access to Aldam's book. Even scanned digital copies are unavailable despite the pre-copyright publication date.

Re: Timeless fly tying advice

Posted: Sun Dec 02, 2018 7:50 pm
by Greenwell
s-l1600 (10).jpg
Here's the Mayfly page from my copy. The pencil annotations appear to be from the original owner and while such things usually bother me these actually add something to the book.
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Re: Timeless fly tying advice

Posted: Sun Dec 02, 2018 7:58 pm
by Greenwell
s-l1600 (3).jpg
March Browns and "Spring or Dottrill Dun." The flies and materials are in almost pristine condition despite being 143 years old. I've seen 4 other copies over the years and in this copy the flies are about the best I've seen.
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