North Country spider article

Moderators: William Anderson, letumgo

Anherd
Posts: 49
Joined: Sun Feb 02, 2020 4:06 am

Re: North Country spider article

Post by Anherd » Sun Feb 02, 2020 12:51 pm

Roadkill wrote: Sun Feb 02, 2020 12:14 pm Anherd :)
Good to know, I have spent countless hours trying to find an old fly I think of just in my small library of fly fishing books .
ImageIMGP9948 by William Lovelace, on Flickr

I can't imagine the scope of your "problem"! :lol:
Hey, you have the same problem too? There is a cure. Just become a writer. Then you can put everything you need down in a book, and your problems are over. Until you put the book on the shelf and can't find it. Danged thing has to be around here somewhere...
Johnno
Posts: 753
Joined: Tue Feb 24, 2009 11:09 pm
Location: Nelson New Zealand

Re: North Country spider article

Post by Johnno » Sun Feb 02, 2020 1:20 pm

Mr Herd, a wee question from the bottom of the world where wets and soft hackles are, alas, as rare in most angler’s flyboxes as dodo quill....

You mention in the article:

“....Today the custom is to tie these game hackle patterns very sparsely, with the bodies as thin as possible whether silk or dubbing is used, with a hackle wound once, or one and a half times at most. However, the old masters didn’t lay down any firm rules, and tied their flies to last. The result, as a friend once complained to me, hardly looks like any kind of fly at all, but believe me, they work, and they get better the more hackle the fish chew off....”

Most pics of old flies I see ( and happily a few that I have) have a lot more hackle than that. I’d suggest two three or Sometimes even more turns ?

So. If more hackle turns was the norm back in the day,( if that was the case) when did that change and why?

Cheers!
User avatar
redietz
Posts: 1726
Joined: Sat Feb 21, 2009 7:21 pm
Location: Central Maryland

Re: North Country spider article

Post by redietz » Sun Feb 02, 2020 1:22 pm

Anherd wrote: Sun Feb 02, 2020 4:30 am
I must have got you wrong on Edmonds and Lee, though, because I don't complain anywhere in the 54Deanstreet piece about them fishing on the Wharfe.
That was my point. You took Smith to task for concentrating on the Wharfe, but not Edmonds & Lee.

Again, I thought this was a minor nit, and I always enjoy what you write.
Bob
Anherd
Posts: 49
Joined: Sun Feb 02, 2020 4:06 am

Re: North Country spider article

Post by Anherd » Sun Feb 02, 2020 3:29 pm

Johnno wrote: Sun Feb 02, 2020 1:20 pm Mr Herd, a wee question from the bottom of the world where wets and soft hackles are, alas, as rare in most angler’s flyboxes as dodo quill....

You mention in the article:

“....Today the custom is to tie these game hackle patterns very sparsely, with the bodies as thin as possible whether silk or dubbing is used, with a hackle wound once, or one and a half times at most. However, the old masters didn’t lay down any firm rules, and tied their flies to last. The result, as a friend once complained to me, hardly looks like any kind of fly at all, but believe me, they work, and they get better the more hackle the fish chew off....”

Most pics of old flies I see ( and happily a few that I have) have a lot more hackle than that. I’d suggest two three or Sometimes even more turns ?

So. If more hackle turns was the norm back in the day,( if that was the case) when did that change and why?

Cheers!
Hard to pin an exact date down, but none of the nineteenth century dressers gave much guidance at all on the subject—you are quite right, in order to produce longer lasting flies, they made the bodies fairly thick and used a lot of hackle. There is another piece in the pipeline about this, but the change happened later than you would imagine. I went through literally hundreds of old angling magazines with a fabulous guy called John Austin and we eventually pinned it down (as near as we could) to Roger Fogg's A Handbook of North Country Flies. In his book, Roger wrote that, “One turn is enough, and one and a half turns certainly is the maximum”, but when I spoke to him on the phone not long ago, Roger confirmed that it was no more than his personal preference for tying North Country patterns. His one and a half turns went viral because there was no other advice around at the time, and even I think it looks better than tying the whole hackle in. Yet, just about the only nineteenth century tyers who said anything were Jackson, who tells his readers to use the entire length of the hackle, and Wade, who says, “Twirl it around twice, or thrice”.
Anherd
Posts: 49
Joined: Sun Feb 02, 2020 4:06 am

Re: North Country spider article

Post by Anherd » Sun Feb 02, 2020 3:30 pm

redietz wrote: Sun Feb 02, 2020 1:22 pm
Anherd wrote: Sun Feb 02, 2020 4:30 am
I must have got you wrong on Edmonds and Lee, though, because I don't complain anywhere in the 54Deanstreet piece about them fishing on the Wharfe.
That was my point. You took Smith to task for concentrating on the Wharfe, but not Edmonds & Lee.

Again, I thought this was a minor nit, and I always enjoy what you write.
Ahhhhhh. Gotcha!
Johnno
Posts: 753
Joined: Tue Feb 24, 2009 11:09 pm
Location: Nelson New Zealand

Re: North Country spider article

Post by Johnno » Sun Feb 02, 2020 10:29 pm

Thanks for that!

I guess it’s a classic example of how one persons thought, idea or opinion can change everything!

In this case how many hackle turns are required... but a minor detail ... 😂
User avatar
tups
Posts: 34
Joined: Tue Mar 17, 2009 4:31 pm

Re: North Country spider article

Post by tups » Mon Feb 03, 2020 9:33 pm

Dr Herd. “The Fly” has given me many hours of enjoyment, so many thanks for that.

I am under the impression that the Lister manuscript (c. 1712) and all those that followed are dominated by hackle patterns at the expense of winged flies. If that is true, then how to explain Pritt’s statement (1885) on this issue: “In one important matter the fancy of Yorkshire anglers, and indeed of anglers all over the north of England, has undergone a change during the past twenty five years. It is now conceded that a fly dressed hacklewise is generally to be preferred to a winged imitation.”

This seems to suggest that soft hackled flies only became the dominant style circa 1860. If this is true then perhaps the ancients were not as influential as we had thought. Pritt would have been in a good position to know these things, but perhaps he was exaggerating for whatever reason. Having never seen the manuscripts I can only wonder which is correct. Are soft hackles the products of Romans and monks or did they develop in time alongside dry flies?
DUBBN
Posts: 1627
Joined: Sat Jul 06, 2019 3:41 pm

Re: North Country spider article

Post by DUBBN » Mon Feb 03, 2020 10:28 pm

DUBBN wrote: Sat Feb 01, 2020 3:39 pm It is kind of fun to watch feuds between so called experts.


😉
;-)
DUBBN
Posts: 1627
Joined: Sat Jul 06, 2019 3:41 pm

Re: North Country spider article

Post by DUBBN » Mon Feb 03, 2020 10:38 pm

RobSmith1964 wrote: Mon Feb 03, 2020 10:31 pm Is he the Halford to my Skues 😂
I’m not an expert by the way, I’m an enthusiast!
I have seen how you self gloss on FaceBook. I am pretty sure you and Mr. Herd are the same person. In any event, it is entertaining to see you two throw temper tantru....... Uh, point out each others lack of knowledge. Good stuff carry on.
Johnno
Posts: 753
Joined: Tue Feb 24, 2009 11:09 pm
Location: Nelson New Zealand

Re: North Country spider article

Post by Johnno » Mon Feb 03, 2020 11:04 pm

Perhaps he is the Skues to your Halford.... ?
;)
:twisted:
Post Reply