North Country spider article

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Greenwell
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Re: North Country spider article

Post by Greenwell » Wed Feb 05, 2020 9:39 am

ForumGhillie wrote: Wed Feb 05, 2020 7:39 am Now I know the true orgins of the "Friday night fish fries" that I so enjoy.

After the potato was introduced to Europe circa 1570 - 1590, the inhabitants of the monasteries were divided into two groups depending upon their kitchen duties; Fish Friars and Chip Monks!
Those with unusually fine culinary skills were sent to cook for the Royal Household and awarded the "Order of the Tartar (Sauce)"
Anherd
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Re: North Country spider article

Post by Anherd » Wed Feb 05, 2020 10:29 am

Image

Over to you Andrew!
[/quote]

That's great—the flies show really well how many turns of hackle were used by some anglers (not all, obviously) in those days, and the top two flies can't be said to have slim bodies, either, so if these flies are from Whitaker then he tied them to last, which is what you would expect given his job. One of the reasons why there are so many fly patterns that we have never heard of is that the flies that turn up in the lists and books only represent a fraction of all the ones that got tied. Much the same is going on today, and you and I will both have tied flies that we thought were great, but didn't stand the test of time, and so will other people—all of those will probably go unrecorded, which is just as well.
And, for anyone else reading this, some flies that did work got lost too, because there are manuscripts which just give names of flies where we have no idea how the fly was tied, because the dressings for those names don't appear anywhere else. Manuscripts are more likely to record flies that would otherwise have got lost than books are, for the (maybe obvious) reason that someone who goes to the effort of writing a book doesn't usually fill it with failed experiments. If people reading want to try to imagine this, say there were, just for example, 600 North Country flies out there, of which the books record say 300, and the manuscripts 300, with a good deal of overlap between the books and the MSS, so they maybe share 200 patterns (remember these figures aren't real, they are just for illustration). That leaves us with 300 flies that weren't recorded anywhere, 50 that only appear in books, 50 that only appear in manuscripts and 200 that appear in both books and manuscripts. Again, the way I like to think of it is that 200 in books get famous, the 50 that are only in manuscripts become exciting discoveries—and the 300 get flushed down the pan of history, among which are likely to be some flies that would have allowed us to understand why the survivors ended up being preserved.
These unrecorded flies are why I am always wary of tracing patterns back from fisherman to fisherman, because people moved around a lot even in those days, and you never know who they met and where they got stuff from—there is always a good chance that two people with the same fly both got it from a third party. On top of that, again for readers, getting flies by mail order from tackle shops was routine as early as 1756 (sounds amazing, but it was). So flies could come from anywhere.
But those are pretty typical nineteenth century soft hackles (well, actually, they are mostly game hackles, but I can't say that because Rob comes from south of Harrogate) and they are a nice set. If you look closely, one of the flies has a herl head, which is a style that died out—more or less—way back, but I can't think why, because if you tie flies that way, they still work.
joaniebo
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Re: North Country spider article

Post by joaniebo » Wed Feb 05, 2020 10:59 am

One of the MANY things I've enjoyed about this string of posts is that it "somewhat confirms" my own meager efforts as I tie flies that are over-hackled with fatter bodies (like me - body-wise, not hackle-wise!) and seldom exactly as shown in the old (or new) dressings, with only a few exceptions where I "stick to the rules".

My "variations" sometimes work well and at other times just allow me to practice my casting and scare the local fish. Regardless, I enjoy tying my "variations" and have fun splashing the waters while enjoying the scenery and companionship of friends.

Thanks to all for your postings.

Bob
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letumgo
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Re: North Country spider article

Post by letumgo » Wed Feb 05, 2020 12:56 pm

"Chip Monks!"

Now that's funny! :lol: :lol: :lol: :D
Ray (letumgo)----<°))))))><
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redietz
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Re: North Country spider article

Post by redietz » Thu Feb 06, 2020 12:56 am

letumgo wrote: Tue Feb 04, 2020 8:57 pm Zoom in on the fish. By the shape of the head, and size, I’m pretty sure that is a pike...
I believe you're right.
Bob
Anherd
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Re: North Country spider article

Post by Anherd » Thu Feb 06, 2020 4:46 am

redietz wrote: Thu Feb 06, 2020 12:56 am
letumgo wrote: Tue Feb 04, 2020 8:57 pm Zoom in on the fish. By the shape of the head, and size, I’m pretty sure that is a pike...
I believe you're right.
It has to be said that there was Les's way of doing things, and the wrong way, so it is probably a good thing that he isn't around on social media right now, or the pair of us would be dodging bullets.

Les made his share of mistakes, like spelling Chippindale as Chippendale all the way through his book, and putting down Norman Nellist Lee as Norman Nellis Lee. At least he only missed the T out of Lee's middle name once and didn't repeat it. You would have thought a proof editor would have caught the howler about Norman Nellis Lee, but I guess that there can’t have been one.

However, my favourite is on page 193, where he calls Herbert Maxwell, Robert Maxwell (brain fade, I imagine, what with the newspaper Maxwell being in the headlines all the time). Does it undermine the book? Nah, not really, we all knew who he meant.

But for all that, Magee’s isn't a bad book, because the mistakes are sporadic and they don't undermine the integrity of the book. Don't forget that when he wrote, it took fifty times as long to get anything researched, and also that there was hardly anything else written about the history of North Country flies at the time. In a way, criticising Les (and he could be a real curmudgeon's curmudgeon) is a bit like criticising John Waller Hills. Both of them paid their dues, did the groundwork, and paved the way for future historians, like thee and me. So I have to tip my hat to him. It would be seriously ungenerous to do otherwise.

With that out the way, and with me clutching my wooden stake and clove of garlic just in case he comes back (here, you hold onto them), lets get stuck into Les.

First, his table on page 38 was a crazy idea. The vast majority of the patterns in the lists he puts in there were named after an insect—so just correlating the names against the other lists conceals the problem that the patterns were completely different. You probably fish a pheasant tail, Rob, and so do I, so the names on 'our' lists would correlate, but we might be using completely different flies. There is other stuff like that in Magee, but again, it was the time he lived in, and mostly Les wasn't too far out (Roger Fogg rang him up by the way, because he got the date of The Art of the Wet Fly out by nine years).

Now before we go anywhere with this, I did spend time going over Magee's book, and I would like to ask what evidence you have that I didn't do so, Rob?

I will discuss stuff in an adult fashion more or less forever, but if you are going to rely on the type of language you have used at the top of this email, count me out, because I gave up that kind of foolishness when I was a child. If you didn’t mean it, fine, say so.

So this is a trial. I will always be polite to you, I won't make any observations about how thorough (or not) I might think you are, I will not make any observations on your character either, because otherwise, the good people here will think less of me. And you, my friend, will agree to do the same. If that is OK, then I will post the two lists side by side, and the people here can decide for themselves, rather than taking your or my word for it.

Deal, or no deal?
Anherd
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Re: North Country spider article

Post by Anherd » Thu Feb 06, 2020 5:50 am

Are the mods OK with this? And everyone else?

I don't want to even accidentally treat the members of what is an exceptionally well conducted forum to anything resembling a domestic dispute. As far as I can tell, people want to learn, and Rob and I both know stuff that the rest of you might not, perhaps, but it is going to be hard going for everyone if the discussion breaks down into a slanging match. Plus, none of us will learn.

Here, while we are waiting for Rob to say OK—and I am sure he will—is a pic of part of Sylvester Lister's MS. You can assess whether Les Magee had problems with the alignment for yourselves. If you have Les's book you can start checking the two against each other, but once Rob has agreed the terms of engagement, I will post both lists in a table so you can assess the differences for yourselves. One thing I will say is that mistakes that Les's made almost all came in the first six flies, and the rest of the list only contained a few slips, the worst of which was leaving out the body for no. 36.

I'm not going to pre-judge this one, you lot are going to be the jury, but it might be worth keeping in mind that we think of George Kelson as a great man, and yet he got the attributions of a very high proportion of his salmon flies wrong, and suggested that there were 60 more than there actually were in The Salmon Fly. So we need to keep this in some kind of perspective.
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DUBBN
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Re: North Country spider article

Post by DUBBN » Thu Feb 06, 2020 6:07 am

Aherd, in my opinion you two have done well. Even with the prodding from me.

If you two can share a pint or a cup of coffee after this discussion, then I say go full bore.

If you can not sit down after for a drink then I would suggest you stop.

In any event, it has been an entertaining discussion.
Anherd
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Re: North Country spider article

Post by Anherd » Thu Feb 06, 2020 6:35 am

DUBBN wrote: Thu Feb 06, 2020 6:07 am Aherd, in my opinion you two have done well. Even with the prodding from me.

If you two can share a pint or a cup of coffee after this discussion, then I say go full bore.

If you can not sit down after for a drink then I would suggest you stop.

In any event, it has been an entertaining discussion.
I'm fine with sitting down for a coffee with Rob, but I want to ensure that this remains an entertaining discussion and doesn't tip over into something else. If someone asks me a question, then I will answer it, and if someone questions my opinion, then all I will do is to put up the reasons for holding it.

I've just talked to Smith Settle, who published Les Magee's book, and they are OK with me putting up Les's transcription of Sylvester Lister's list here.

All we are doing now is waiting for Rob to clock back in, but I am sure he will.
Anherd
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Re: North Country spider article

Post by Anherd » Thu Feb 06, 2020 6:53 am

RobSmith1964 wrote: Thu Feb 06, 2020 6:45 am Andrew, I'm fully OK with anything you want to post. I'm not sure what email you are taking about, as I haven't posted any email, but never the matter. There is no personal animosity on my part, and I will be delighted to share a drink with you. Of course the real arguments will come when we have to decide who is picking up the tab.
Due to being at work when mostly posting, all my posts are via iphone, which makes things difficult to say the least. I will inform you of the proofreading issue at the BFFI, as dirty washing shouldn't be aired in public.
if the weather forecasts are correct, we are in for a very stormy weekend, we will be thankful we are sat inside!
The weather sounds awful, but last year it rained the entire week, and snowed, and just about everything else, as I am sure you will remember!

Hey, don't worry about using a phone. We know what you mean!
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