hook question

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Theroe
Posts: 1214
Joined: Sat Feb 25, 2017 11:42 pm
Location: New York City

Re: hook question

Post by Theroe » Wed Apr 29, 2020 2:13 pm

joaniebo wrote: Tue Apr 14, 2020 2:47 pm From "The Book":

"HOOKS
A hook's shape is largely a matter of opinion. Personally,
I prefer a round bend secured for me by
Messeena's of London, England. These hooks leave
nothing to be desired. They may be seen in the photographs
of my flies in the chapter on Fly Patterns and
Dressings. My next choice is a hook which I used to
get from Allcock's in a sproat style: #1810 First Grade
Hol low Point. I have not been able to get these
lately but they are excellent hooks, far superior to
Allcock's # 1810 Best Grade Hollow Point. Of course,
there was sixty cents difference in the price per hundred
but I am not interested in cheapness—it is
quality I am after and I will gladly pay for it.

All hooks for my own use are straight,
without side bends or snecking. If I want them
bent to the side I bend them to suit myself with a pair
of jewelry ers' pincers which I carry in my vest
pocket. Also, I prefer my hooks to have turned-down
eyes."
SOME early JL patterns ride up eyed hooks. With all of the banter on how hard it was to find good hooks, Im sure they all used whatever they could get. That point aside, I for one WILL NEVER UNDERSTAND why JL and other anglers and fly dressers complained about hooks.....Sealy, Mustad, Woodfield, Allcock, Martinez and a slew of others we in production(or had recently ceased operation). Could it be that gene we all have within us, which causes us to seek more and do better ? Funny how we (ME) cherish these older hooks, bidding them up to 20-30 times their original cost.......Who knew ALLCOCK would outpace the S&P or Dow?? :arrow: :shock:

Anyway, I hope you ALL are WELL and healthy - I am going BACK to fishing....

Dana
Soft and wet - the only way....
ssj
Posts: 13
Joined: Mon Dec 31, 2012 11:13 pm

Re: hook question

Post by ssj » Wed Dec 23, 2020 7:15 pm

I always thought that the upturned eyes were pretty good looking. I think they would fish well with a turle knot. I mostly fish ring eyed or slightly down eyed hooks these days with a loop knot (Duncan Loop).
Fishnkilts
Posts: 301
Joined: Wed Jan 22, 2020 9:40 pm
Location: Colorado

Re: hook question

Post by Fishnkilts » Sun Feb 14, 2021 9:47 pm

Trevis wrote: Tue Apr 28, 2020 8:24 pm So, it's been 44 or 45 years since I went through all the fly fishing and tying books that the big city library could obtain for me and in reading, note taking and copying pictures with pencil and paper they all kinda ran together, read the flymph book twice, and went at the study of all fly related literature like I was working on a degree for several months and somewhere in some of that literature there was a hint that surface flies had turned down eyes so that the tippet lying on the surface or slightly sinking would angle up to fly sitting above the surface on it's hackle and not push or pull fly out of level and that subsurface flies had turned up eyes so that with the tippet rising away at an angle the fly could again be level. Straight eyes were bait hooks where orientation didn't matter. It kinda made sense at the time.

This is the first time I have ever heard anything on the position of the hook eye that actually makes sense and why it makes sense.

Thanks Trevis, that is a great explanation.
Greenwell
Posts: 342
Joined: Fri Apr 08, 2011 9:05 pm

Re: hook question

Post by Greenwell » Mon Feb 15, 2021 11:47 pm

Actually, the reason that up-turned eyes were used for dressing dry flies was that the up-turned eye made a convenient thread hold during the process of tying. This is outlined in Halford's first book, Floating Flies and How to Dress Them. The hook style became somewhat "synonymous" with dry flies and for many years it was axiomatic that dry flies were dressed on up-turned eye hooks and wet flies were dressed on down-turned eye hooks. One of the most famous early styles was the "Hall's Snecky Limerick" and appears in much of the early literature pertaining to dry flies. Most of the Theodore Gordon dry flies that have survived are on the Hall's hook.

During Jim and Pete's time the best hooks came from England where this tradition still held sway. Even into the 1970's, Pete was buying hooks from the English firm of Veniard and the several styles of hooks he used can easily be traced to Veniard's, including the "Up-Eye Trout" and "Long May" models.

In the US the standard dry fly hook form post WWI onward was the Model Perfect, a down-eye hook, but even until quite recently the British were dressing dry flies on up-eye hooks.

It is demonstrable that the down eye hook has superior hooking geometry when modern knots such as the Clinch Knot are used to attach the tippet. For the up-eye hook to achieve the same hooking qualities, the tippet needs to be attached with a Turle or similar knot that goes directly through the eye and knots around the head of the fly. In fact, the Turle Knot is named for Major Turle, a fishing companion of Frederick Halford, and was developed concurrently with Halford's early dry flies
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Old Hat
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Re: hook question

Post by Old Hat » Fri Mar 19, 2021 4:38 am

For larger wets (#10 and up) with a wing and fished on the swing the fly will orient itself in a more parallel to the waters surface. Hence why many steelhead and salmon flies are on an up eye hook. Bulk of the fly and water velocity play a role. I'm not sure about smaller sizes or wingless wets. Fished the way I fish my flymphs (upstream, dead drift, stripped, or swung) I have never noticed any significant differences in takes or landings. You'll hear a lot of people talk about leverage and the up eye's inability to hook or hold well. In a lab situation, there may be a slight difference, but on stream, I've never noticed a practical one. Sometimes we just analyze things too much. Like Ron, I just like the look of the up eye on flymphs, but I tie them with both. On smaller hooks (#16 and smaller), I think the up eye has the advantage of opening the gape of the hook.
I hate it when I think I'm buying organic vegetables, and when I get home I discover they are just regular donuts.
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